Deviant Criminology
Dr. Richard Weaver Jr., Heather Kenney, and Rachel Czar take listeners on a journey through the world of true crime. With their unique careers in the criminal justice and academic world; they work to provide an entertaining and educational experience for listeners. This podcast examines many areas of true crime including; the formation of laws, cases that defined caselaw, and crimes that impacted the world. Please join us on this journey as we transition from professionals in criminal justice and academia to budding podcasters.
Deviant Criminology
The Rise of John Dillinger: From Farm Boy to Infamous Bank Robber
Unlock the secrets of America's most notorious bank robber, John Dillinger, as we explore his journey from an innocent farm boy to a legendary criminal mastermind. Discover how Dillinger's prison years became his classroom, with mentors like Harry Pierpont and John Hamilton introducing him to Herman Lamb's methodical heist techniques, setting the stage for robberies that would captivate the nation and inspire cinematic heists in "Ocean's 11" and "The Italian Job." As we unravel Dillinger's life choices, themes of loyalty, betrayal, and the allure of infamy emerge, painting a complex portrait of a man who chose crime over a quiet life on the farm.
The Kansas City Massacre wasn't just a bloody headline; it was a catalyst that transformed American law enforcement forever. Explore how this event shaped the FBI under J. Edgar Hoover, leading to pivotal changes like armed agents and the establishment of Quantico. Through personal reflections on Union Station's historical transformation, we examine Dillinger's daring crime spree during an era of tumultuous change in criminal justice, highlighting how his actions underscored the period's chaotic nature and left an indelible mark on history.
Join us as we recount Dillinger's notorious bank robbery spree, from bold heists in New Carlisle and Bluffton to the notorious escape of his first gang from Indiana State Prison. The escalating violence, strategic planning, and audacious escapes of Dillinger's gang highlight the challenges faced by law enforcement and the evolving tactics of criminal enterprises. We invite you to connect with us on social media and visit our website for more insights, as we continue to explore the fascinating stories of infamous criminals and the intricate world they inhabited.
www.deviantcriminology.com
Hey everybody, I'm Richard.
Speaker 3:I'm Heather.
Speaker 2:And welcome back to our podcast. First thing, I want to talk about the way we do our podcast. So this is the first time we've recorded since we went live and started putting episodes out there and I want to thank everybody that's taken the time to listen. That's kind of been behind us since we started. It's been a great experience. We're really excited to see what the future brings for us.
Speaker 2:So this is episode two of our Dillinger series. It's been kind of interesting to research an individual that I thought I knew about from growing up and from TV and stuff, but lo and behold, there's been so much more to it. And again, this all for me started back when I was talking to my father, who mentioned that my great grandfather had kind of always referred to Dillinger as a punk without a gun, that my great-grandfather had kind of always referred to Dillinger as a punk without a gun. And it makes sense, the farther we kind of get into this story, how you can see that transformation from the farm kid that we talked about in episode one and kind of that time in jail to when he gets out and he does get a hold of his guns and this gang that he runs with. So, as we touched on at the end of part one, dillinger learned a lot from the people that he was around in prison. These skills he would later utilize in his crime spree.
Speaker 3:As part of his criminal education if we want to refer to it as that Dillinger studied the Herman Lamb meticulous bank robbing system, and it's something he used throughout his criminal career and it's something that we still see today. He acquired much of his knowledge about Lamb from two inmates that he worked with, Harry Pierpont and John Hamilton. He served time with them in prison and worked in the laundry area of the prison with them. So to understand more about Lamb and how his methods influenced Dillinger, we have to know more about Herman Lamb, and Herman Lamb is somebody that we could spend an entire other episode talking about, so I'll try to keep it brief and short. But he was also known as Baron Lamb because he was a German immigrant and he had been in the military, and when he was looking at how to go about robbing banks, he came up with the idea that it needed to be planned out like a military operation. So it was Lamb who developed the ideas of things like casing a bank, having a planned escape route in advance of the robbery, having a team of individuals who were working together, all with specific jobs and skills, and typically, with his planning, his method consisted of at least three people. One was the getaway driver, and that person would be solely responsible for driving the vehicle, obtaining the vehicle and knowing the escape routes. A second person who would be on crowd control, and then the third man who was sent to get the money, also referred to as a bag man, and this meticulous planning system became known as the LAM technique, and LAM was able to use this method to complete dozens of successful bank robberies from the end of World War I. When you look at this method, that's what becomes the standard modus operandi for most of modern bank robbers, still utilized today.
Speaker 3:But like most criminals, Lamb's luck ran out when he was working with Pierpont and Hamilton. One of their bank robberies went south and it ended up with the group of robbers, when they were being led by Herman Lamb, being surrounded by a posse. Now the gang got into a shootout, with the authorities trying to escape, but they didn't, and Lamb decided that he was not going to surrender and killed himself. But Pierpont and Hamilton did surrender and went to prison, and when they went to prison they were sent to work in the shirt factory, which was where Dillinger was also working. So the three of them became friends and started sharing stories, and Pierpont and Hamilton started giving Dillinger the one thing he didn't have before he went to prison, which were tactics.
Speaker 2:And it's worth noting here. Like we had said, lamb created this roadmap of bank robbing in his life that is now often seen in TV movies and still utilized by criminals today. So think of all the movies that utilize that design where they have a wheel man. You've got the muscle, the brains. You've got a tech person the safe cracker To think about it. You've got Ocean's 11,. You've got a tech person the safe cracker to think about it. You've got oceans 11, oceans 12, oceans 13. They may be up to like oceans 340 by now. But, like one of my secret favorites, that I liked was the italian job and it really utilized this skill, how everybody had a very set job that they were to perform. And also one thing that that movie showed that kind of shows up here a little bit later is kind of that no honor amongst thieves thing, where when you have a lot of money and you have a lot of opportunity or you have a lot to lose, it's very easy for somebody to turn on somebody else to cover their own ass.
Speaker 2:So the circumstances that Dillinger saw once he was paroled after serving nearly nine years of his sentence sentence that at his parole hearing and we're going to go back to talk about some of the things that led up to this.
Speaker 2:But he had promised to return to his family farm and work the land.
Speaker 2:But this was a lie and this is kind of something that you hear criminals say all the time.
Speaker 2:And I know this partially because a friend of mine was a bank robber back in early to mid 2000s and one of the things that always stuck out to me with him was a he knew what he was getting into. But there was something about the lifestyle of being a criminal, like when you would go to his house he had the scar face posters and like the really tacky ones you see, like dime malls and stuff like that. But he almost had this thing where he said to me once like I don't mind going back to prison because that's where, like that's the people I know, that's people I feel safe with. In fact, he said once you know, I need to go back to prison just to get my head on straight. So I think, not only the skills that he's learning in this prison from all the criminals he's surrounded with, but also he's creating these friends and these family members, which will also come up later that he misses him so much he decides he doesn't want to go back. He just needs to get his family out.
Speaker 3:So when he's eventually released from Indiana prison, he gets out on May 10th of 1933. And that's after about a decade of him being in custody. And at that point he's pretty much angry at the world. And if you go through the events while he's there, while he being in custody, and at that point he's pretty much angry at the world, and if you go through the events while he's there, while he's in custody, his wife, who he seems to have been rather fond of, left him.
Speaker 3:He wrote her a letter in August of 1928 saying dearest, we will be so happy when I can come home to you and chase your sorrows away, for, sweetheart, I love you. All I want is to just be with you and make you happy. Write soon and come sooner. But just a few months after he sends her that letter, she files for divorce and in June 1929, she actually obtains that divorce. Years later, dylan is quoted as saying actually obtains that divorce. Years later, dylan is quoted as saying I began to know how you feel when your heart is breaking. For four years I had looked forward to going back home and now there wasn't going to be any home to go back to.
Speaker 2:And that's like that's kind of a sad story. Like I feel like I don't know about prison, I haven't been there but like when you're in the military and you get that you're sending letters home and you're like I love you, I can't wait to like get out of boot camp or get off this deployment. And then you get that letter it's like oh, here's your divorce papers. And you're like I'm, I can've now taken his wife, the one thing he had left to get out for which then leads to him to like kind of make these decisions that you're about to talk about that lead him down this road, and I do believe that some of this has to do with that loss right there. Maybe that was a trigger point for him.
Speaker 3:And I think for sure that's always a question and how much those events will influence somebody's life. So, like in this case, after his divorce he comes up for parole and at that parole hearing it's denied. And he's had exemplary behavior for two years. He's completed twice the daily quotas he needed as a factory seamster. He even helped others meet their quota Quotas he needed as a factory seamster. He even helped others meet their quota. So he was doing even more work besides doing double. That people weren't giving him credit for because he was giving that credit to other people to try to help them out of their situation. So after all of that he thinks you know, this is my shot, I'm going to get out. And then his parole is denied. So at that point his family's all fallen apart. He has no reason to think he's going to get out anytime soon and he requests a transfer because he wants to leave everything from Mooresville behind. And he asks for a transfer to Michigan City, which is not known to be the nicest, most fun facility to be imprisoned in.
Speaker 2:It's still not known for being a good facility to be imprisoned in.
Speaker 3:Right, it's not the place you want to be, and at that point Pierpont and Van Meter were up there, so it's kind of like you were referring to that family that you come to have in prison. And he's, at this point, chosen to be with his prison family instead of working to get out to be with the woman that he had been married to, because she's gone and he has no chance of getting out to try to find her or see her work things out at any time in the near future and that's something that comes up a couple times with dillinger is and again we'll talk about as we're going through his stories but the loss of this woman.
Speaker 2:He tries to date another woman that I believe was related to one of the gang members. Uh, he met her through prison and that doesn't work out, but he gets caught because of her. He gets caught again because another woman he's trying to start a relationship and I think there's this part of him that wanted to have that family and be involved with the woman and maybe have kids one day. But then there was that other part of him that was this criminal that enjoyed that lifestyle and it's really it's kind of like you can be two things at once. Like he was a good person, he took care of the inmates, he had this one to be family. But there was also this other side of him that was vengeful and angry and wanted kind of this fame and this money, especially when he gets out in the time period that it is.
Speaker 3:Which again, that time period is during the Great Depression. We know even to this day. When you get out of prison it's very difficult to find employment and he considers himself to be heartbroken and have no home. And at that point he commits his first bank robbery in June of 1933. Later, in October of 1933, dillinger blames all of his bad choices at that point on his time in prison, saying I know I have been a big disappointment to you, but I guess I did too much time For where I went in a carefree boy. I came out bitter towards everything in general. If I had gotten off more leniently when I made my first mistake, this never would have happened. So I'm not really sure that that would have made any type of a difference, because obviously he was already on a bad path and he had already made multiple mistakes before he went into prison. But at least in his mind that was the causation that put him on this path.
Speaker 2:And I think there I've seen an interview that was done with his father years during his spree and, like his father still I think, saw that good person in him, hoping that it would come out Like in this interview. He kind of tells reporters, like you know, I wish they would stop this chase for my son, that we could figure out these things that he has supposedly done, because I think that my son would make a good officer or a good person in society if, given the chance, I think there was part of his father that still saw him that way. But John couldn't see himself in that way. So it's kind of sad that he's writing this letter to my, his father's, and I want to.
Speaker 2:You know, I could have been a good person if they hadn't done this to me, which again is another thing that time and time again you see criminals say like it's your fault, that I'm this way, it's the system's fault I'm this way, and not really taking responsibility. Now in this case could we say that there were some issues. I don't know. Would you say 10 years for that first offense is a little much.
Speaker 3:For something like the facts of this case, I would say, yeah, typically you give probation on a first time around. There was somebody who was injured, so that would make it more of a crime of violence type thing. So that would be more lenient to, or take you more towards a sentence that would have prison time and not be so lenient on just having probation. But at the same time it seemed like even the person who was the victim in that case didn't want him to be thrown under the jail, so to say. And now we have things like victims' bills of rights which say that the judges have to hear from the victims. They're obligated to listen to what the victims have to say on these cases. So at least on some level it looks like he did get a far harsher sentence than what most people would, especially when you look at his co-conspirator. His co-conspirator got what was it? Two years.
Speaker 2:Two years, two years. You also look at the fact that at that time period, yes, my grandparents eventually did live to be 80. But at that generation, that time, you didn't think you were going to live 50, 60 years old. So you're already in your 30s when you're getting out of prison. You've lost all that time that was important for starting families and everything. So, yeah, I can see where he's upset. I don't think the choices he was about to make are at all justified, but you can kind of sometimes see the evolution that creates Dillinger.
Speaker 3:I think it definitely made him more angry too and added more fuel to the fire. So even if he would have ended up on the same path, I think it accelerated his trip down that path, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you've seen his childhood. He was already committing crimes. He already kind of enjoyed that lifestyle, and even going back to Indianapolis showed that. So Dillinger would not even last two months before blowing his promise to the state, the citizens, and he would start his criminal rampage. But there was a major event that occurred four days before he decides to rob his first bank, which in my mind is kind of a dumbass move. But you have to understand, at the time period news didn't really travel fast. But so four days before his first bank robbery there is an incident in Kansas City which becomes known as the Kansas City Massacre, and this was a pivotal event occurring on June 17th 1933 at the Union Station Railroad Depot in Kansas City, Missouri.
Speaker 2:So this shootout kind of leads to a lot of changes in the FBI and gives Hoover the ability to really start making the FBI the powerhouse that it would become. So federal agents are transporting a gangster by the name of Frank Jelly Nash. He's a federal prisoner. They were to meet local law enforcement at the train station to transport Nash to custody in another state. As they exit the train station, outside there are armed gangsters with Thompson guns waiting to ambush them. So in this ambush process there are four officers that are killed. The first is FBI Special Agent Raymond J Caffrey, then a Kansas City officer who was Chief Odo Reed, Detective Grooms and Detective Hermanson. Him in this ambush kind of not only shows how little thinking went into it, but the next day is when hoover authorized all fbi agents to go out and get all the guns they could get their hands on, and it would be this event that armed the federal bureau of investigations. That would also lead to the first federal gun control laws and it mandated that federal law enforcement officers were to carry firearms. It would take the FBI to create Quantico and really these now training them to be law enforcement officers where before this event they were really more of almost lawyers. They had more background in IRS and tax evasion than they had in what we now would consider the modern FBI. Four days after this horrific attack and this public train station, Dillinger commits his first crime.
Speaker 2:So between episode one and this one, I had the pleasure of visiting Kansas City. It's a really nice place, but it was a chance to go to Union Station and I didn't know Heather until we started doing this episode about this event, Like it's just kind of one of those that in one of the documentaries I was watching this came up and from a law enforcement background it was kind of an emotional experience to be at this important site to the evolution of what would become the FBI and really the big impact on our criminal justice system that it had. But I'm sitting here outside and they've got it marked with this little plaque that most people probably don't even recognize. But you're looking for it and it's it still looks kind of the same it did, really the only the road outside has changed. And just to think of what happened there and the events that it would spiral into.
Speaker 2:But then you walk inside and there's like this little beautiful coffee shop and you're having coffee, looking at this beautiful facility, going, this is that moment. And then you think to the untouchables with kevin costner and you're like, oh, this doesn't look anything like that because they didn't tape it there, like hollywood screwed that up and didn't tape, like a historic moment in the actual place that happened. But but because of the massacre, this was a turning point american law enforcement history leading to the modernization and arming the fbi, and I'll be damned if Dillinger didn't pick the most horrific time to start his killing spree.
Speaker 3:So about four days after the events that you were just describing, about 605 miles east of Kansas City, on June 21st 1933, john Dillinger and his gang commit their first bank robbery, and that's in New Carlisle, at the New Carlisle National Bank. New Carlisle, indiana, is also where my grandmother lived for quite some time and it's outside of South Bend. South Bend has always had more industry type environment and so New Carlisle gets some business off of that and piggybacking off of that and, being between Chicago and other areas, they get some of the money that comes from Chicago and Lake Michigan. But it's mostly a rural area, it's mostly a farming community, doesn't have what I would consider a lot of money. It's not some place that I would look at on a map and say, oh, I bet there's big money there, let's go chase after that.
Speaker 2:So the gang entered the bank through a window the night before. So they go in on June 20th, hide in the bank that night and wait till the time block opens up in the morning. So in the morning of the robbery three employees were on duty Horace Griso which I'm probably butchering these names horribly Carl Enoch and Matt Taylor. So the gang had the employees held under gunpoint, with Taylor tied up behind the counter using telephone wire. So they ripped a telephone wire out of the wall, tie this person up, tie this person up. Griso was forced to try and open up the bank vault, but he pretended to be new to the bank and was able to stall the robbers and not open the vault. So Enoch, along with the customer that came into the bank, tj Widener, were also being held under control by the gang until they were able to get a hold of $10,000 roughly, which in today's money equivalates to almost $240,000. So this was kind of one of their biggest, most successful bank robberies. So after securing the money, dillinger and his gang made their escape and would successfully elude the police.
Speaker 2:Now there's a key piece that comes up repeatedly of Dillinger's success, and this is not the use of machine guns. That was a major tool that they had. That was an advantage. But their biggest advantage was their choices in cars. So, as we've discussed previously, dillinger loved cars and specifically the 1938 Ford V8, which this is a much faster, higher powered vehicle than law enforcement had access to at the time. Law enforcement was using the Ford Model B, which was only a four cylinder, so Dillinger's gang heavily outpowered them when it came to speed.
Speaker 2:And there's an episode of a TV show I love, hosted by the wonderful Josh Gates, and they did an episode about Dillinger and one of the things in there was they were able to race a Ford V8 against one of these Ford Model Bs and it's just no competition. They were able to race one of these Ford V8s against one of these Ford Model Bs in the episode and there's just no competition. It's just within two miles. He's gone. So I think that shows really what law enforcement were against. They were using six shooters and shotguns with these slow four-cylinder vehicles, while dillinger and his gang are using these fully automatic thompson machine guns and these high-powered v8s to get away that he moves over to his next robbery, and that is in August of 1933, and that's over here in Bluffton Ohio.
Speaker 3:So then we move on to his next robbery, which he commits in August of 1933, over in Bluffton Ohio. On August the 14th the gang robs the bank, but this time police from Dayton capture Dillinger and transfer him to the Allen County Jail in Lima to be indicted for the Bluffton robbery. He is searched while he's in custody and officials find documents that they think are a plan for prison escape. They attempt to get information from Dillinger about the plan. They attempt to get information from Dillinger about the plan, but of course he declines to cooperate. So on August the 14th of 1933, dillinger and his gang commit the daring robbery at the Bluffton City National Bank in Bluffton Ohio.
Speaker 2:Okay. So in this one they get away with $2,100, so not nearly as lucrative as the one in Indiana. But this again had Dillinger, who was accompanied by three of his gang members. They were armed and they did not wear masks. So at this point Dillinger kind of liked the fame and they didn't worry about being known Like. This kind of became a thing for him of wanting people to know. This is John Dillinger robbing you. So there were three bank employees and one civilian present at the time. The robbers forced the employees and the civilian to lie down on the floor while they emptied the cash drawers. The gang was efficient and swift. So this is that, that lamb approach that you're seeing. They're in out very fast. Within five minutes After securing the money, the owner and the gang again escape. They fire shots down Main Street as they're fleeing to deter any pursuit and once again they successfully evade the police to continue their spree.
Speaker 3:So this robbery was part of Dillinger's early criminal activities that eventually led to his arrest in Dayton Ohio on September 22nd 1933. Dayton Ohio on September 22nd 1933.
Speaker 2:So John was arrested again September 22nd 1933 in Dayton, and what led to this was he had gone to Dayton to see his girlfriend, Mary Longnecker. He had visited her frequently, but this time the police had gotten wind that they were coming to see her. She was staying at a boarding house on west first street in dayton, ohio, and the rumor and some of the stories I've seen is that it was either the lady that owned the house had caught wind that he was coming, the lady of the house had found a letter to mary longnecker from dillinger that said that he was going to be here around this date. So the police are watching this address waiting for Dillinger to show up. Finally they're told you've wasted enough resources. There are a couple of days they leave.
Speaker 2:The day they leave is the day Dillinger shows up. So he leaves I believe it's the lady of the house again or somebody gets wind of the police like hey, he's there now. So the detectives that had been waiting for days have to run back and capture him there. So he was captured by the police while visiting his girlfriend. Dillinger was charged with assault and battery with the intent to rob and conspiracy to commit a felony. So as we talked about, Dillinger had kind of not been cooperative on this potential jailbreak that they had found papers on him for. Dillinger didn't want to give any information about these plans, and four days later the police would find out why.
Speaker 3:Exactly four days after he had been captured. That escape plan was able to be implemented at the Indiana State Prison and once that plan was put into motion, harry Piermont, who we talked about earlier, along with seven other acquaintances, escaped through force and threat. They were able to smuggle guns into their cells which they used to hold the guards and force their way out of prison. That group comes to be labeled as the first Dillinger gang and it includes Harry Piermont and John Hamilton, who we talked about earlier, who worked with Dillinger in the laundry facility at the prison, and then there's also Clark Marley, ed Schaus, harry Copeland, and that group now is together, but Dillinger now is in custody in Ohio. So now they have a new problem that they finally figured out how to get out of the Indiana State Prison. But in the meantime, after they planned their escape, Dillinger has been picked up in Ohio. So now these gang members have to set their sights on figuring out how to break out Dillinger. To set their sights on figuring out how to break out Dillinger.
Speaker 3:So on October 12th of 1933, harry Pierpoint, Clark Mackley, they all arrive in Lima and they impersonate an Indiana state police officer, saying that they're there to extradite Dillinger to Indiana, which is, you know, actually pretty clever because you know, again, we don't have great identification badges, credentials, you don't have cell phones or anything where you can call and say, okay, I need to talk to this person or I'm going to check on this piece of paper and see who your supervisor is and call your supervisor. So these guys show up and they're like hey, we're from Indiana State Police and we're here to transport him. But Sheriff Jones, he starts asking for more details and ask for identification and credentials and as he starts to get more and more suspicious, harry Pierpont shoots the sheriff, who later dies from his injuries, and Dillinger is free again and the four of them returned to Indiana and they join up with the rest of the gang.
Speaker 2:I think it was the killing of the law enforcement officers in this escape from Ohio. This, I think, really puts them in the crosshairs of law enforcement and I don't know what was going through the heads of the people that would. The task force was put together officers that would chase him from here on out for the next year, but I think his fate was sealed at this point. I don't think there was going to be a take him alive because we see, even in the case of Bonnie and Clyde which we're not talking about here but even then they just gunned them down. There was no try to stop them, try to take them, just kill them. So I think, by killing a police officer and they kill multiple as this goes on, that's what really sealed their fate and they didn't even wait.
Speaker 2:After this crime where you've now killed an officer in an escape attempt to, they didn't even wait before they start their next robbery, start their next robbery, and I think not only with robberies that have already happened. I think this is a black eye to law enforcement because they've escaped from multiple prisons. You have a group that, escaped from an indiana prison, goes and breaks somebody out of an ohio prison. They kill a law enforcement officer in the process. And then, here we are, not even 11 days later, they pop into green castle, indiana, and commit a robbery of the Central National Bank and Trust Company.
Speaker 3:And this robbery actually takes place on October 23, 1933. When they commit this robbery they actually end up with $74,802. This specific event involved John Dillinger, harry Pierpoint, charles Mackley and those were the main participants A lot of these. We have a difficult time figuring out exactly who was involved in what, and there's even some things that people had said Dillinger did when we know that he was in Florida and he even made reference to basically being blamed for everything. But this one is one of those ones that you know that he's involved in and a few other key people in his inner circle were involved in.
Speaker 3:And this specific robbery began around 2.45 pm and the three of them walk into the bank and they're wearing bulky overcoats to try to conceal their weapons. Russell Clark and Harry Copeland shoot the guard on the outside of the bank to prevent anybody from entering Inside the bank. The gang takes control, forces the employees and customers to lie on the floor while they go and empty all the cash drawers and the vault. So when it comes time for their getaway, after they've secured the money, the gang makes their escape in a stolen car and successfully evade the police. At that point they head out to Chicago to lay low and plan their next heist.
Speaker 3:The robbery began around 245 when Dilliger, pierpoint and Mackley enter the bank wearing bulky overcoats to conceal their weapons. Russell Clark and Harry Copeland are outside guarding the door to make sure that nobody else can get into the bank, while inside the bank, the gang takes control, forces the employees and customers to lie flat on the ground and they empty all of the cash drawers and the vault In order to get away. After they secure the money, they escape in a stolen car and are able to again successfully evade the police and head to Chicago where they're going to hide out and plan their next heist.
Speaker 2:And, as you can say, with all of their robberies, with this one specifically again, this is one of their most lucrative heists so far and it kind of further solidifies this reputation as a notorious bank robber, which is how he ends up becoming public enemy number one is at the time he's the most active and, like you said, he kind of became a boogeyman for some law enforcement agencies to be like oh yeah, that bank robbery that was totally dillinger a, I think to maybe just write it off like we don't have to investigate it, we just say dillinger did it. But also to try and make the citizens feel safer to a point, because when you have one guy that's the target of all he's doing, all the bank robberies, citizens aren't thinking, oh, there's 20 bank robbers out here making all these bank robberies. And, as you can see, if you study this time period, there was like 20 bank robbers that were doing this. So after the green castle robbery, the gang lays low for about a month before heading to Wisconsin ready for another score. So they head to the American Bank and Trust Company which is in Racine, wisconsin, and this takes place on November 20th 1933. The amount that the gang makes off with in this case is $27,000. Again we see Dillinger, pierpont, mackley and other members of the Dillinger gang.
Speaker 2:The gang entered this bank with their machine guns out and quickly took control of the situation. So between the last robbery and this one there are MO changes. We're no longer trying to conceal ourselves. So one thing this makes me wonder is I've not been to all these cities. It may be fun one day to do a. Where did dillinger gang rob places? Because I'm wondering if the first city was a bigger city. So they felt that they had to hide because it would have taken longer to get from wherever they parked to the bank, so not to alert anybody. And maybe this one on november 20th in wisconsin it's a smaller town so they could get closer to the bank and get in and out. I don't. I don't know that simply because I don't know these areas. It'd be neat to visit those towns and see that.
Speaker 2:But the gang entered the bank. Charles mackley yelled stick them up. This is one of those times you hear that cliche term used, but he yells it at the teller who was on the phone at the time. When the teller, who was Harold Graham, did not comply quick enough, mackley shot him in the arm. So now we're almost seeing an escalation here, because this is one of the first cases I see that they're shooting somebody.
Speaker 2:During the robbery, the robbers forced the employees and customers to lie on the floor again while they emptied the cash drawers and this time the vault as well. So after securing the money, the gang this time they take three hostages and make their escape. They escape police and continue their crime spree. This is also the first time we hear them taking hostages. So I don't know if if this was an escalation, if this was new gang, because there's a lot of details with dillinger it's 90 years ago.
Speaker 2:You'll read one place this happened and this person was involved, like we said, with dillinger supposedly being involved in these or so, and so was president this robbery. But then the fbi records would be like well, no, they actually weren't there. So there is a little confusion here on this. But again, this is the first time they're taking hostages. I don't know the whole situation that was going on there because there are so many here and there, but the FBI has a great file on kind of these are the crimes that happened but not the details, and I think are the crimes that happened but not the details, and I think part of that is it's hard to get details this long afterwards. And even the details were given back then some people weren't giving factual because dellinger was kind of this folk hero, so the eyewitness information and testimony you're getting wasn't even really reliable to a point. It was almost like oh my god, we were robbed by dellinger, instead of like we were robbed.
Speaker 3:And technology was also not what it is today. You didn't have a cell phone with a picture right in front of you constantly, so it was more of something. You would hear about this person who's doing things, but you wouldn't recognize them. If they walked into your bank, you would only maybe think, oh, this must be the same crew, because they did to us the same thing that these other people did. You wouldn't necessarily say, oh, this must be the same crew, because they did to us the same thing that these other people did. You wouldn't necessarily say, oh, I see that person and I recognize by face. Or I saw that person on TV, I know who that person is.
Speaker 3:And maybe with this one it might have been just a panic type thing, because if the teller's on the phone and you think, oh God, who knows who he's talking to, what's he going to tell them? Is he going to tell them that we're here and we already have this tight timeline and we have to be able to escape? And maybe, maybe it was just like a panic thing. And then, once they shoot somebody, then you know well, now we're really in it. So now what do we do? So it might have been just something that spiraled out of control in the heat of the moment. Even it might not have been part of the plan at all to take hostages or to shoot somebody.
Speaker 2:Well, in this case, specifically in this robbery I don't think it was the case. I didn't see anything that said this. But there's other bank robberies in this time period that I've read about In the north it was more. If people were arming themselves and were going after bank robbers, Like the town would hear this bank's being held up and they would go to respond Like, if the police aren't going to stop them, we will.
Speaker 2:I didn't see that here, but it may have been that that was on a rise and in fact during this time in Texas there were bounties put out if you caught a bank robber, so somebody would rob the bank and the whole town would come out armed because you would get money for taking down a bank robber dead or alive, which there's another case we may have to talk about sometime. It was where it turned into a bloodbath because of these policies, so people were starting to take the law into their own hands. I didn't see anything about that in this case, but you just shot somebody. Now, OK, we need hostages to make sure we can get out of here safely.
Speaker 3:So once they're out of that specific situation they get to have a little bit of a break and they chill out for two months Again, maybe because they were worried about what had happened at that scene and the way things got out of control. There's no direct links between them and any other bank robbery until mid-January of 1934.
Speaker 2:So January they go to Chicago, indiana, east Chicago, indiana, to the First National Bank. They get away with twenty thousand dollars. This is john dillinger, john hamilton and, again, individuals identified as other members of the dillinger gang. So this time dillinger and hamilton entered the bank with their machine guns hidden in music cases. So there's almost like there's this, like we're just going to do different things for fun at this point. First time they're going in with them. Well, last time they're going to undercoats, next time we're just going to go guns blazing. This time we're going to take them in in music boxes Again, I know there was planning, but there almost starts to be a showmanship to this with Dillinger.
Speaker 2:So they quickly took control of the situation. They are forcing employees and customers on the floor while they emptied out the cash drawers and vaults uh, involved. And bank workers sound the alarm this time, prompting dillinger to warn his partner like hey, um, there's been an alarm and the police are outside, but don't be in a hurry, don't panic, get all the dough, we'll kill these coppers and get away. This is what they're saying he said on the inside Again, eyewitnesses, if that's really what he said, but I do believe just from what we know about Dillinger and the Lamb theory. He would have said like don't panic, like if we panic we're going to make mistakes. We planned for all of this. That's what they would have done beforehand.
Speaker 2:So they take a bank worker named Walter Spencer hostage to help them escape as the police were waiting outside. Hostage to help them escape as the police were waiting outside, dillinger used Spencer as a human shield to protect him and his fellow robbers from the police. During the escape, dillinger shot and killed police officer William P O'Malley. So now you're starting to see Dillinger's even his own violence and willingness to kill, because you go back to the first ones. He doesn't want violence, even though his childhood crime was an act of violence. Now he's willing to kill law enforcement. So even he's escalating at this point. So the gang managed to make their way back to their specially equipped car that actually had bulletproof glass. This is one of the first time I've read historically about bulletproof glass being utilized. So it's kind of interesting how they're advancing technology-wise, not only for the time, but specifically in their crimes, and again they successfully evade police.
Speaker 3:And this one after he shoots this officer. I think it's also good to note that the officer was shooting at him before he shot at the officer. It wasn't just that he saw an officer and said I'm going to take that person out, kind of like the quote that they had about we'll kill these coppers and get away. It wasn't just that he saw an officer and said, okay, you're here, I'm blowing you away. That officer was shooting at him and then he returned fire. And then this was the officer, like years and years later, that he said he felt bad that he had died because he had a wife and kids. It wasn't so much I feel bad that I killed him, it was I feel bad that I've now created this family that doesn't have a father. But he also again didn't take real responsibility for it because he said something along the lines of he was throwing lead at me. What was I supposed to do?
Speaker 2:and that goes back, though, to the whole concept of look, what you made me do. Is the criminal like hey, asshole, if you hadn't been robbing a bank, a cop wouldn't have had to have come to stop you. And you've already killed cops in other situations. You've already shot a guy because he didn't move fast enough. So it's not like you're not willing to use violence, so don't put this on the cop like, well, he shot at me. First you're robbing a bank with guns. What do you think's gonna happen?
Speaker 2:And this goes back to what we talked about with, like, the felony murder thing if you hadn't been committing the crime you committed in the first place, the cops wouldn't have been here, somebody wouldn't get shot. So, as again, I know I'm biased, being a former police officer and stuff, but when you start killing cops, you're bringing down the thunder of law enforcement. I think that's a big part of Dillinger that people don't understand. This was not a nice Robin Hood. He's escalating in his robberies, his violence, his willingness to put himself, the people around him, in danger, and I can't even imagine, from like a prosecutorial standpoint, what it's like trying to track somebody like this back in the 1930s it'd be near impossible.
Speaker 3:And then again you also have him using spencer as a human shield. So you know, as far as, like, officer O'Malley is looking, I mean he's got this guy they're trying to make. What are they going to do? Are they going to take him off into the woods with them, like what is it they're going to do to this guy? Like he has to do everything he can to try to stop them from taking this hostage off with them? And again, it's not like Dillinger's reconciling that, saying well, maybe if I hadn't taken the hostage they wouldn't have been shooting at me. Or, you know, maybe I should have just let him go and tried to run and like outrun the officers, instead of standing there and engaging in this gun battle in the middle of the street.
Speaker 2:What, and the fact that he's willing to even take a human being as a shield, Like he obviously didn't care if that guy got shot, which to be amazed is bullets are flying back and forth. It's and I didn't see anything where this guy was hit or anything, but even the psychological trauma that that individual and all these people went through that were part of these robberies and things. I don't think it gets enough attention to what he really did. Like we make these folk heroes and dillinger kind of a folk hero, like we'll get into, kind of how he died, but in the areas of Chicago where he kind of roamed, like there's full size murals of him, almost like he's this mythical figure and he's the antihero in this story. But there is no antihero in this story. He's just a villain and he's just a criminal. This isn't Robin Hood. This is a criminal who just wants to make money. This isn't Robin Hood. This is a criminal who just wants to make money and I think it's this last robbery that he commits and he knows that he's kind of messed up. So they end up going to Arizona and and Tuscan, Arizona this is where he's arrested in January 1934. And that arrest leads to him being sent to Indiana, back to an area called Crown Point, which he arrives at in around February or March of 1934. And this which is kind of where we're going to end this episode. But this Crown Point prison experience is the event that really leads to the last chapters of his life.
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