Deviant Criminology
Dr. Richard Weaver Jr., Heather Kenney, and Rachel Czar take listeners on a journey through the world of true crime. With their unique careers in the criminal justice and academic world; they work to provide an entertaining and educational experience for listeners. This podcast examines many areas of true crime including; the formation of laws, cases that defined caselaw, and crimes that impacted the world. Please join us on this journey as we transition from professionals in criminal justice and academia to budding podcasters.
Deviant Criminology
Willie Sutton: The Gentleman Robber and His Enduring Legacy
Unlock the captivating world of Willie Sutton, the infamous bank robber whose charm and cunning made him a legend of his time. Discover how Sutton's non-violent approach to crime and his transformation into a folk hero offered a unique perspective on the interplay between criminality and society during the Prohibition era. We'll unravel his early life, shaped by a working-class Irish immigrant upbringing in Brooklyn, and explore how it set the stage for his audacious criminal career, marked by meticulous planning and clever disguises.
Journey through Sutton's fascinating criminal career as we uncover the cunning heists that earned him the nicknames "The Actor" and "Slick Willie." From his polite demeanor during robberies to the pivotal moments that led to increased law enforcement scrutiny, Sutton's story offers a compelling look into the mind of a gentleman robber. We'll also dive into the cycles of criminal justice reform, exploring how shifts in societal attitudes led to his release from prison and his surprising transformation into a consultant for banks and law enforcement.
Reflect on the cultural impact of Sutton's legacy, as we examine how media portrayal and music immortalized him as an anti-hero. We'll discuss the broader themes of crime, redemption, and societal perception, using Sutton's story to consider the cyclical nature of criminal justice and the cultural impact of true crime folklore. Through songs like Tom Chapin's "The Ballad of Willie Sutton," we'll explore how music continues to preserve the stories of figures like Sutton, offering a broader understanding of history and society.
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you're in your cocoon now. You're good, all right, so welcome to another episode. So this time we're gonna have at the beginning a little bit of office sausage talk and just kind of bring up some fact, like every once in a while you may hear a car in the background. That's because we're human beings that record in a house. We don't have a cool studio, so somehow a nice rural road, every time we go to record an episode, becomes the Indy 500. So if you hear everyone's all the vehicle noise or real weird pause or my inability to speak English, it is one of those reasons I also want to take a minute, because we haven't done that so far.
Speaker 1:It's our podcast and we can do this to like, just say like thanks to a few people. So one I definitely want to say thanks to Heather for doing this with me, and Rachel when she comes back. I want to acknowledge your other half, scott, who has been super supportive of this. My wife, who I will just refer to as bunny, for dealing with this and letting me spend a lot of money on a hobby. To Nancy, aka my daughter, who is our producer, who is now staring at me like I am a dick.
Speaker 1:I also want to acknowledge like two very good friends of mine, one being Val, who I know has been supportive and kind of helpful through this, and then also my buddy and BFF, warren, who has been very supportive and listening as well from the beginning. So I just kind of want to acknowledge some people and thank them for their support and making this all possible as we're going into like 13 episodes 14 episodes at this point. So that's that and, with that being said, so I'm Richard, I'm Heather and this week we wanted so I'm Richard, I'm Heather.
Speaker 1:And this week we wanted to do something a little bit more lighthearted. So when Heather, rachel and I set out to do this podcast, really it was about kind of our passions, with our backgrounds being in criminal justice and being able to take those experiences and kind of continue at least using that knowledge in a way to educate people and just kind of do things with our friends. So yeah, most of our episodes have been about murder or murder adjacent, which is partially influenced by my academic and professional research, which has been focused on mass murder and serial crimes, and then just kind of the true crime nature of things murder and serial crimes and then just kind of the true crime nature of things, like it usually does kind of go more towards the dark issues more than it does some of the more light-hearted crimes that you don't really hear about as much because they don't just get the attention. But in our research across multiple episodes that we've already done, specifically like the John Dillinger and Eastern State Penitentiary, there was this really interesting guy that popped up whose name was Willie Sutton and he's kind of this famous, notorious bank robber that his story just really got me because of who he was, his background and that across all his crimes he never murdered anybody, he didn't assault people, he just kind of had this interesting way of committing his crimes. So kind of a little bit about Willie Sutton.
Speaker 1:So he's kind of like I said, this notorious famous bank robber in American history.
Speaker 1:He lived his life emblematic of kind of the tumultuous world in that early 20th century when crime was kind of rampant, that late 1920s going into the 1930s prohibition era. So he was known for being really charismatic and he was ingenious in the methods that he had of evading capture, of robbing banks. And it provides a fascinating insight to this interplay between criminality and society during his time. Because he did become this kind of like folk hero, almost an anti-establishment person that people kind of were drawn to, even the people he robbed, which we'll talk about. But his life and crimes were driven by a combination of personal motivation and then kind of this, this, the systemic influences of what was happening in that time period and it not only attracted the attention of law enforcement obviously, but it did captivate the public's interest in him and what he was able to pull off. So willie's journey into infamy began long before his first main life, heist, his, his early life and the environment where he was exposed to played a significant role in shaping kind of who he became as a bank robber.
Speaker 2:Did you want me to pick up there?
Speaker 1:Sure, I don't want to dominate all this.
Speaker 2:So you mean to start where he was born? Yeah, Okay, as soon as the truck goes by. So he was born into a working class family in Brooklyn, New York, June 30th 1901. So a long, long time ago. And he was the fourth of five children. I'm the oldest of my family and I can say as an oldest we definitely have a different disposition than those who are younger siblings, and he's the fourth of fifth. So I think that that definitely has something to do with his ingenuity and thought process and the different things he's able to pull off the shenanigans. Speaking of shenanigans, his parents were Irish immigrants and they struggled to provide for their family and financial instability was a constant theme throughout his childhood. Despite these hardships, he did maintain a close bond with his family, who raised him in a tight-knit immigrant community, which is.
Speaker 1:I mean the Irish, especially around 1900, they've always kind of been repressed and had this reputation. You know Boston and some of these areas where you see he's in Brooklyn at this time. So the Irish did live in very tight community communities and a lot of those communities were poor because they were kind of the other at the time Around. This time is also when the Irish kind of really started mingling with the Italians as well because they were both kind of othered.
Speaker 1:You saw a lot of crossovers and you know historically in TV and stuff they've always shown the Irish and the Italians kind of against each other. You see that a lot like the Departed. But in these time periods really the Irish and Italians work together in certain situations, not to go too much. But you would see later where the Irish and the Italians, like the Irish, would be a big part of what was known as Murder Inc. Which was kind of the hit squad that the Costa Nostra used in their criminal activities. So the Irish and the Italians had a lot more crossover but a lot of it came from them being othered as immigrants into this country and politicians and others using them as kind of these decoys.
Speaker 2:So they did stay tight in it as kind of these decoys, so they did stay tight in it. So, although his family was not entirely destitute, his family was entrenched in those socioeconomic brackets that left them vulnerable to all the uncertainties of the early 20th century. And that environment fostered a pragmatic approach to his life, where his aspirations were tempered by the harsh realities of their economic circumstances. Sutton's formative years were spent observing the struggles of those around him, which imbued him with an acute awareness of the stark inequities of the society in which he lived.
Speaker 1:And it was during these years that Sutton first encountered the criminal underworld. The neighborhood he grew up in was rife with petty crime, small Irish mobs, and it was not uncommon for young men in his community to become involved with illegal activities, either as individuals or part of small roving I guess you would call gangs. What is the sign you see in a lot of Irish pubs? Beware of pickpockets and loose women, kind of that whole Irish mentality. So Sutton's initial brush with Kimes were reportedly small scale and seemingly harmless pickpocketing, petty theft, things like that though they served as a stepping stone into a larger world of criminal endeavors. And it is also said that Sutton had protection on the streets and in jail when he would get picked up from local mob members, which kept him safe from assault and other criminal elements, and I think this is a real big depiction of his ability to be kind of charming and friendly with people. That people wanted to protect him, like they kind of looked out for him.
Speaker 2:I think that whole charming element goes a long way in a lot of these criminal cases, like across the board.
Speaker 1:Yes, not just bank robberies, yeah and I and I think with him, though in a way it it became a good protective factor because he didn't hurt people like he and he said would say later in life, like he. That was never his goal, like his goal was to stick it to the man and the money, but he never wanted to harm people.
Speaker 2:It's almost like he used his powers for good instead of for evil.
Speaker 1:Yes, and at that time again we talked about this with John Dillinger there were a lot of people that looked at bank robbers and people like Willie Sutton because post great depression, during this prohibition era, like the media, used them to sell papers. But there was that anti-hero thing that like you're going against the government, yeah, you're stealing from the rich, but you're stealing from the rich. There really was no Robin Hood effect. Nobody was seeing. It wasn't like they were taking the money and giving it back to people. They were just stealing the money and saving it for themselves, but they were still sticking it to the banks that were kind of seen post-Depression era as the cause of some of the downfalls of the stock market stuff.
Speaker 2:So he ended up transitioning and growing into crime, and as he went from adolescence into adulthood, his motivations for committing crimes also evolved. He was influenced heavily by the disparity he saw between the rich and the poor, as well as the glamorized portrayal of bank robbers in the media, which we were just talking about, and he developed a fascination with the idea of undermining the financial institutions yes, emblematic of societal oppression. These influences and motivations laid the groundwork for his career in bank robbery, which culminated in strategy and audacious heists that would earn him notoriety. Willie Sutton's career is marked by a series of audacious bank heists that cemented his reputation as one of the most notorious bank robbers in American history. His foray into large-scale bank robberies began with a strategic approach that leveraged both his cunning and deep understanding of bank operations.
Speaker 1:So Willie Sutton's criminal career was initiated through a series of calculated bank heists that provided him with both experience and notoriety. So he didn't have any prior bank knowledge. It's not like he worked or anything, he just got really good at casing joints, at being able to really look at the layout of the banks. What were the activities of people? And this is one of the things we talk about in anti-robbery and when we're talking about making places more harder targets is it just becomes so common for people to just get in these routines, like if you did happen to have a bank guard every hour on the hour. That's when they get up and they walk the route, or everybody comes in at the exact same time in the morning. And, as we'll see with a couple of his heists, it was that predictability that he was so good at exploiting. So the early heists that he staged in his endeavors were successful and reinforced his confidence and his skill set. His ability to execute these heists with precision not only demonstrated his prowess but also established him as a formidable figure in the criminal landscape. And he was a liked figure, like even other criminals that he came across. He was able to charm them, to get them to work with him. That comes very key post when he's arrested.
Speaker 1:So throughout his career, sutton targeted numerous financial institutions and each heist was prefaced by careful reconnaissance and planning.
Speaker 1:So he's very big on this planning what is the best way to do this? But kind of in the opposite of what we saw with Dillinger and Van Meter and all them, where it was the smash and grab, his was very let's do tactics and subterfuge. So one of the ways he did this was utilizing disguises and manipulating social cues to gain access to bank vaults. His uncanny ability to commit higher stakes but low-risk crimes led to a string of successful heists that became sensational stories in the media. One fact that made his legacy stand out was that Sutton was often referred to as a gentleman, and people present at his robberies always noted that he was polite, he was respectful, and because of these combinations of disguises and reputation as this gentleman, he got two nicknames, the first being the Actor and the other being Slick Willie, which he achieved just because of this reputation. Once, in a media interview in his later life, he was asked why he robbed banks and he answered and it was simple Because this is where the money was.
Speaker 2:Straightforward answer, I mean, though he committed numerous bank robberies, there's one that really kind of started the downfall for him so I still have to laugh at that whole polite robber like hi, I'm here to rob you, could you please give me the money? Thank you so much, do you mind? Would you mind giving me all the large bills? No change please.
Speaker 1:No coin, thank you you ever seen LA story? So this is the LA story and it's set like late 80s, early 90s. It's Steve Martin that's the main character and the scene is he goes up to an ATM and he pulls money out and as he starts to walk away, there's a line of people trying to get to the ATM but there's a line of guys with guns and the guy, like, introduces himself. It's been a while. He's like, but introduce himself, says his name and he's like I'll be your robber today. And Steve Martin's character is like oh hey, and he just hands him the money and they just walk off. And it just kind of makes me think of the Willie Sutton like hey, I'm Willie, I'm here to rob you today. And they're like oh, willie, it's so good to see you. Here's the money. How's the kids Talk to you later?
Speaker 2:Come again soon.
Speaker 2:See you in 11 months. So, anyway, one of his bank robberies that he had. And the FBI article really gives the best description of two of Sutton's biggest crimes, the first one being February 15th of 1933, where Sutton and a colleague attempted to rob the Corn Exchange Bank and Trust Company in Philadelphia, pennsylvania. And in that one Sutton disguised himself as a mailman and he entered the bank early in the morning but there was a curious passerby and that that passerby caught Willie's attention and he completely abandoned his robbery attempt at that point in time, however, on January 15th of 1934, so he was very patient. This is like 11 months later. He was very patient. I don't know that most criminals would want to wait that long to try again, but he did, which?
Speaker 1:is probably why he's successful. Well, that and the other thing like and I couldn't find information about this, and this is one thing that we've seen with other cases, like kind of before 1950. There's not a lot of information about specifics, um, but there had to be something about this bank specifically. I don't know if it's the amount of money they were bringing in, I couldn't really find details of that, but there was something about this thing.
Speaker 2:He really wanted to hit the corn exchange bank and trust which always makes me wonder if there's some type of a personal thing there, especially given that history and the socioeconomic factors. It's the corn exchange bank and trust. Is there something specific about that group of people that caused him angst? I don't know, it just seems like an interesting institution to target. But on January 15th 1934, he enters that same bank, this time with two companions, and they come in through a skylight, and then when the watchman arrives, they force him to admit the employees like usual, like they do every day, and as each employee comes in, they handcuff them and crowd them into this small room.
Speaker 1:And that was the case. That really got law enforcement onto him, and not long after that he also executed a Broadway jewelry store robbery, which was done in the middle of the day by impersonating a postal telegraph messenger. So Sutton's other disguises that he had used through robberies included a policeman, a messenger and a maintenance man. He was very good at using the uniforms and mannerisms of these different professions to gain the trust and get inside of banks, as we see in the Broadway jewelry store, just gaining trust. He carried guns.
Speaker 1:It's never denied that he'd carried Tommy guns. He carried pistols, but there's even a joke that was made amongst law enforcement and Willie himself that it's very possible they were never loaded. That was made amongst law enforcement and Willie himself that it's very possible they were never loaded. We don't know for sure, but Sutton's first serious brush with law culminated in his capture in 1934, marking the beginning of his complex interaction with the legal system. Despite his meticulous planning and the cunning strategies that he employed in his heist, law enforcement agencies eventually caught up with him, leading to multiple arrests throughout his career, and each captor was a testament to the growing pressures on law enforcement to dismantle Sutton's operations and bring the elusive criminal to justice operations and bring the elusive criminal to justice.
Speaker 2:So of course you think you know, ok, they've got him, now he's, he's in custody. Things are going to, you know, be good for the rest of us now.
Speaker 1:That was.
Speaker 2:Willie around Not so much so. He had a talent for evasion and he constantly kept the authorities chasing their tails, and as his notoriety grew, so did the efforts to bring him to justice as things were going along. His initial capture was the result of diligent law enforcement work, and it involved extensive surveillance, just the same as he had surveillance on these banks and tip-offs from informants who operated within the criminal underworld. So the arrest itself was dramatic, and it captured the attention of the public and the media alike, which had been closely following Sutton's escapades. Following his capture, the legal proceedings commenced with much public interest and media spectacle. The courtroom scenes were reminiscent of dramatic standoffs, as prosecutors always love. Those prosecutors presented evidence against Sutton, who remained unflustered amid the proceedings. His trial not only brought his criminal exploits under the judicial spotlight, but also showcased his charisma and wit, traits that Sutton skillfully utilized to his advantage throughout the legal process.
Speaker 1:And besides being known as an innovative robber, sutton's arrest in June 1931 on charges of assault and robbery. He ended up being sentenced to 30 years in prison. Of assault and robbery, he ended up being sentenced to 30 years in prison. But throughout his incarceration, sutton demonstrated a relentless pursuit for escape, viewing imprisonment as a mere obstacle to overcome. His escape attempts were often meticulously planned, just like his robberies, showcasing his ability to leverage his keen understanding of security measures and human behavior within the prison environment. So he was good at getting along with inmates as well as guards, gaining their trust and learning their mannerisms, their behaviors and their routines.
Speaker 1:His prison escape attempts drew significant attention from both prison officials and the public, who were captivated by his apparent disregard for the constraints of confinement. Sutton's imprisonment experiences further illustrated his resourcefulness and determination. During his incarcerations he made several escape attempts, some of which were successful, some of them were not, and added to his infamous reputation. These attempts were marked by an audacity that continued to captivate the public and frustrate law enforcement agencies. Sutton seemed to view prison as just another puzzle to break. So his first escape was on December 11th of 1932. He scaled the prison walls by using two nine foot ladder sections that were joined together and going up and over the wall.
Speaker 2:And so he was apprehended on February, the 5th 1934. So you know, sometime later, and at that point he was sentenced to serve 25 to 50 years in Eastern State Penitentiary, and that was for the machine gun robbery of the Corn Exchange Bank. And then, on April 3rd 1945, sutton was one of 12 convicts who escaped the institution through a tunnel beneath the prison walls. This escape optimized. Sudden, this escape epitomized. I can't talk, hang on, I need a drink of water. Water break, yeah, everybody good. A couple cars go by, we're ready for that. Quick put down the drawbridge. This escape epitomized Sutton's ingenuity and determination, gaining widespread notoriety and adding to his legend as a master escape artist. His escapes underscored a broader narrative of resilience, further establishing his image as a figure who defined, further establishing his image as a figure who defied the conventional confines of the law. Sutton was recaptured the same day by Philadelphia police officers. This had been his fifth escape attempt at prison.
Speaker 1:And, as we've talked about, the Eastern State Penitentiary in the 1930s was kind of a shit show anyway, but the fact that he was able to work with 12 other convicts to escape is just fascinating to me. But it's not when you see and we talked about how that was a decaying facility by the 1930s and had already been there for over 100 years it's not hard to see that he was able to pull it off. I mean, it was not exactly a sound infrastructure, but so I sometimes wonder too what the dynamics were like.
Speaker 2:You're talking about personality and charisma and things like that, and we know in modern times now it seems like our people running our jails and prisons kind of have a different mindset than the people who are in there. A definite separation. You're not going to hang out, you're not going to chit chat. You might be kind to one another, but it's not like you know. You're going to sit down and tell them stories about what your kids are doing or anything like that. And I don't know how it was then, but I get the feeling that he would have been one of those people that the guard might've been like oh yeah, my kid won his baseball game this weekend, type of a thing, like that's just the feeling I get from his story.
Speaker 1:Well, and when you go back to like Al Capone as well, when he was there for a short time it talked about how he had like a prison cell to himself and he was treated like a king. So also there was something at Eastern State Penitentiary where if you had notoriety and were known you kind of got this different level of treatment. And obviously Willie Sutton by this time was a known figure. He's one of those illustrious outlaws that was in the media a lot. So, sentenced to life in prison as a fourth-time offender, sutton was transferred to the Philadelphia County Prison in Honesburg, pennsylvania. On February 10th 1947, sutton and other prisoners dressed as prison guards decided to carry two ladders across the prison yard to the wall after dark. When the prison searchlights hit them, sutton yelled it's OK. And no one stopped him.
Speaker 2:Which I think is just crazy. It's oh look, they're taking a ladder to the wall. What's going on over there? Oh, it's okay. Oh well, he says it's okay.
Speaker 1:Never mind, it's okay, it's nighttime, a couple of prisoners are carrying it, a couple of guards just carrying ladders and going up over the wall. Nothing to see here. This is just the most bonkers shit I've ever heard. This is like I'm one of those that I very much and we've talked about before with those like I hate the glorification of criminals but I just like this guy. Like there's something like he hit all the bells and whistles of like you know what. I'm just going to fuck with the system, while doing his best never to endanger anybody. I mean, obviously, escaping from prison. You're still putting people in danger and we have to take that into account. But he was just so smooth about some of this stuff.
Speaker 2:And you never know either who else he's facilitating to escape, which, of course, is another one of those things Like when you say, oh, 12 of them broke out. Even if this specific person wasn't, like a quote unquote, bad dude, you never know who the 11 other people were that he helped get out of the jail or prison.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I can't remember at this second because it's been a few since we recorded that, but we talked about who those 12 were and kind of their connections, but with Willie. On March 20th 1950, willie, the actor Sutton, was added to the FBI's list of 10 most wanted fugitive. So obviously well after Dillinger and them, but he finally makes it on the most wanted list. Makes it on the most wanted list because of his love for expensive clothing, though. The FBI decided to send Sutton's photo out to tailors as well as police departments. So a 24 year old Taylor's son recognized Sutton on the New York subway on February 18th 1952, and followed him to a local gas station where Sutton purchased a battery for his car. The man reported the incident to the police, who later arrested Sutton, and again, I just think that says something. There's something I love about this guy who's like so fancy and so known for wanting to dress in these nice suits. The police are like you know what, don't send it out to everybody, just send it to tailors and the cops.
Speaker 2:One of those two will notice who he is. I thought that was pretty funny too, and it's like the taylor's son that, like you know, of all things, like you're like that's ridiculous, but it worked, like it was just the way it goes.
Speaker 1:It's almost like the joker you're like aha. Send it to somebody that does green hair dye they'll notice him at least that was that guy like?
Speaker 1:so uh son did not resist arrest by the new y Police Department but denied that in those what was it like 13 years that he had been on the run, that he had committed any more robberies or other crimes since that escape from the Philadelphia County Prison. So at the time of his arrest, sutton owed one life sentence plus 105 years. He was further sentenced to an additional 30 years to life in New York State prison following a jury trial in Queens County Court, where he serves his sentence until he was released from Attica prison on December 24th 1969 at the age of 68. So I guess, like that goes back to the summer of 69. Well, I guess it's the winter of 69.
Speaker 2:Yeah, winter of 69, which is kind of crazy when you think about. Like. He got out at 68, but he was supposed to have a life sentence plus 105 years. Again, that charismatic thing how in the hell do you have that much and somehow you get out? I mean, 68 is not exactly young, but it's also not, you know, like some of the cases now where they let the person out and six months later they're gone.
Speaker 1:And I think his health had been declining, so I just think they didn't see him as a risk anymore. But at the same time, yeah, like what is? And I think we still ask this question today. Sometimes when we see people that are let out of prison and stuff it what is? And I think we still ask this question today sometimes when we see people that are let out of prison and stuff it's like what does life really mean? Because it's not what people think it means. Life is 25 years and then after that, parole is optional.
Speaker 2:Especially if you get all different things like credit of time served and good time and all the different calculations they have with that. And then, of course, if it's a COv or crime of violence and that changes the calculation.
Speaker 1:But you're, you're right, like people say, oh, they're going to serve 15 years, and in their mind they add 15 years to whatever the date is and thinks well, that that's when they're going to get out, but no, not so much and I'll be honest, like I'm a little surprised I let him out at 68 just because, like bitch, he embarrassed y'all like five times by escaping from jail and stuff. Like usually law enforcement takes that stuff like really personal. But at the same time he's really charismatic, he's very friendly, but there is kind of that like, oh you let me out of prison. No, I stayed here until I was 68, just so you guys know.
Speaker 2:Like I just just that's how I imagined willie sutton playing this out, almost like a deal, like I've been good for so long can you please let me out so I don't have to leave on my own.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the the god I forget the name of the movie, but like where they're. Like, all right, we're gonna let you go and the guy just hands him the cuffs he's like oh, I'm gonna take him off at any time, like yeah, I could have left any time, yeah. I'm glad you think you're letting me go.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, he eventually got to return to the real world and when he was released from prison, he precipitated a combination of yeah, hang on one second, hang on one second. Did we already go over that? No, we didn't. Okay. So eventually he returns to the quote-unquote real world and when he's released from prison, there's a combination of factors, including his advanced age, his changing perspectives on criminal rehabilitation, like we talked about, his charismatic character and the legal system's evolving stance towards incarceration and reform we talked before about, like the punitive standpoint versus the reformative standpoint, and at this point in his age, as we're getting up to that, like 1960s, 1970s, it's more of a focus on rehabilitation instead of punishment and trying to separate people from society and actually trying to get people to come back into society as a functioning member.
Speaker 1:Well, and this is also kind of that weird time that late 60s going into the early 70s, where you had deinstitutionalization and we were trying to get people out of institutions but we haven't hit the war on crime yet. So there's this like really small sweet spot where, like, we were trying to report people and get them out of prison and then, like 1970s, we hit the war on crime and then we just flood the prison system. So he just happened to be in that sweet spot.
Speaker 2:Which is interesting when you look at those like different evolutions of law enforcement and how our attitudes have changed, like even from you know, like when we talked about Eastern state and you know as far as like having people be in solitary confinement, and how things have changed on the view of solitary confinement, that at first it was like, oh, this is the best thing. And then it's like, oh wait, that's actually like the worst kind of torture you could do to somebody. Then it was okay, we're not going to do solitary. And now we're back to well, we'll do it, but it's more of a punishment thing than an actual. This is the status quo type thing.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So those differences are always interesting and I always wonder how much of that is influenced by different groups. Is it a psychology thing? Is it a law enforcement thing, Is it a corrections office thing, or is it just a societal like in general?
Speaker 1:this is how we feel thing thing or is it just a societal like in general? This is how we feel thing and I think it's a cycle because I do see the potential right now, like in the environment we're in from a criminal justice standpoint, like starting to go back more to those extreme punitive measures, um, where you may see like big institutions again with vast imprisonments, more use of solitary confinement stuff. There are talks of that being because you know we're in 2024, going in 2025, and there is a lot of talk of like crime is escalating again. We are seeing some violent crime, so can we use such extreme punitive punishments as a deterrent? So I think this is kind of a cycle system that we see, um, there have been some politicians in the us and this is getting a little off topic, but we will bring it back around to explain that but using some of like south america's they have gone to like these really extreme lockdown prisons where it's 23 and a half hours a day. If you come out that half hour you either work out or you go to church services. Everything else is done very tight-knit. These are strong, huge, concrete facilities. They're not made for comfort and it is a license once you were put in this type of facility and there are politicians talk about this is the route we need to go. So we talk about like this cycle of you know, again with Eastern State to deinstitutionalization like this where his aides, let's get him out, let's try and reform him, and now we're starting to swing back towards that almost institutionalizing again, but like in this situation.
Speaker 1:So once free from prison, sutton faced some daunting tasks of rebuilding his life outside of the confines of prison walls. I mean, he'd been in for a long time and his life before was fueled completely by crime. So he didn't have any resources at this point. But, as we see, he is a creative character. So his attempts to establish a legitimate lifestyle were met with challenges affecting both personal struggles and societal skepticism. You know he is still a convicted criminal who's out People still at this time and even now, like you, still kind of get that, that scarlet letter because of that criminal background.
Speaker 1:But despite these obstacles, sutton endeavored to leverage his notoriety for positive purposes, undertaking activities such as public speaking engagements where he advocated against criminal behavior and shared insights from his lived experiences. One valuable way Sutton did this was by consulting with banks and law enforcement about his methods and tactics and he also became an actor and a book author. So he really kind of almost the white collar TV show or the Catch Me, if you Can, where he went from being the criminal to a consultant and trying to use these skills that he had. I didn't really see anything about his books or his acting, but I did see a lot about his consulting work with law enforcement and banks because he was really good and he was really good at exposing weaknesses stuff and security.
Speaker 2:Which is kind of like when you have a hacker that's really good and then you turn around and hire them to try to hack into the system to see did we actually close all the doors this time? Which is what he did. You know which is what he did. He had that repeated success in infiltrating and robbing the banks and significant in surveillance and the manipulation of the social dynamics that challenged banks to reassess and enhance their protective measures thoroughly. And it's because of the things that he was able to share, the revelations that he was able to share with the banks, that it promoted innovative, more robust security, more robust security technologies and procedures, including things like the implementation of advanced alarm systems, reinforced vaults and increased use of armed security personnel.
Speaker 1:And for law enforcement my area. Sutton's elusive nature and ability to execute high-profile crimes without immediate capture sparks significant introspection and reform. His crimes emphasize the need for improved coordination between agencies. So we saw this all the way back into Dillinger's time where even counties right next to each other didn't talk to each other. If you crossed state lines it was easy to get away because jurisdictions didn't talk. So Willie really kind of helped them realize that they needed to be talking amongst law enforcement agencies but also with the corrections facilities, banks and private security companies. There needed to be more of a criminal justice system, not a law enforcement system, a court system and things like that. So his crimes emphasized also the need to tackle organized crime.
Speaker 1:Even though Willie doesn't appear to have been involved with organized crimes, he had a lot of connection to him and we still see throughout his career that he was protected by organized crime elements because there was that mutual respect. So law enforcement realized that they had to do something about these burgeoning organized crime and we'll talk about there were places where criminals could go to hide, so being able to break down those organizations, those states and those corrupt officials as well. So law enforcement agencies also expanded their use of investigative techniques, such as undercover work and forensic sciences, to better anticipate and future endeavors similar to Sutton's. But Sutton's final years were spent reflecting on his life's journey, grappling with the balance between notoriety and redemption. He navigated public and personal expectations, leaving a legacy that continues to be debated in terms of its moral and social implications.
Speaker 2:So you have Willie, the actor Sutton, and he died November the 2nd of 1980 at the age of 79. His story is a quintessential example of the interplay between crime and the media, where his narrative crafted by the press played a significant role in shaping public perception. We've talked about that a lot, about you know, like you said, the anti-hero and things of that nature and the way the media played off all of these characters during that time period. Throughout his criminal career, sutton's heists were extensively covered by newspapers and magazines, which were captivated by his daring exploits and ability to evade capture, which I think is another one of those things that people loved about it, because he just kept escaping like, oh yeah, you have me now. Ha ha, I know you don't. Here I go, I'm loose again. And just over and over and over getting away from all of these different institutions that you're not supposed to be able to just walk away from yeah, and he did it in a way that was just in their face and so these weren't in depth.
Speaker 1:I mean, some of them were like the tunneling and stuff took time, but he just carried two ladders across the yard. It was just like I'm leaving and they're like cool, like nobody. And because of that, you know, the media descriptions of Sutton often straddled the line between criminal and folklore, like he became this anti-hero, with articles emphasizing his cleverness, his elusiveness and charm. This portrayal was partially fueled by the dramatic nature of his crimes, which included these elaborate heists but also these like really elaborate slash kind of dumb escapes. Stories about Sutton's criminal activities were frequently front page news reflecting not only the seriousness'll come up like so many times as we continue doing this amazing podcast.
Speaker 1:The media really used these stories and sometimes really created these legends to sell papers. Because, you know, cat came out of a tree, mary Lou went and bought corn yesterday. That's not going to sell. But here's Willie Sutton who, with 11 other people, tunneled out of this prison that's notorious for not being able to be escaped from and it's it's kind of not only what builds to crime and criminals and kind of these people that go against the social norms and mores that we have established and create this counterculture. So further compounding Sutton's media appeal was his ability to capture the zeitgeist of the era, particularly in the context of economic disparity and societal shifts. His targeting of financial institutions, perceived by many as a symbol of inequality, resonated with a public disillusioned by the Great Depression's economic fallout this connection helped create a sympathetic aura around Sutton, positioning him as a rebel figure challenging societal structures rather than merely, like this, hoodlum criminal.
Speaker 2:And to me, like I really find music fascinating and since I've gotten into music fascinating, and since I've gotten into Motorcycle, they're at the stop sign waiting for them there he goes.
Speaker 1:Sorry about your penis. So to me, like music is always kind of a big thing, and especially since I started getting a true crime, and especially the historical ones. There's a lot of things that music gets associated with, these folk stories and stuff, and tom chapin wrote a song called the ballad of willie sutton and this song provides not only kind of a narrative sutton's life but also shows his folk hero status and especially with bluegrass and that music style that really comes from the Irish and the mountain folk across this country that looked at people they saw as icons, and he's forever immortalized by this song.
Speaker 2:Which, like you said, it's always interesting how songs like we were talking about with Ludlow like the songs that came from that and you know the.
Speaker 1:Tell me why and and I think what's really interesting just from a cultural perspective is, like said, music's great and I haven't realized until probably the last year, especially the more I've been teaching in criminal justice how many songs that we hear that talk about crime and activity and stuff from hundreds of years ago to now are based in some type of true lore, like another case that we're looking at about the Lawson family murders, like there's a song about it.
Speaker 1:I just listened to the song one day I was like oh, that's a neat song, like it's a bluegrass song, it's kind of neat. But then I Googled it and I was like holy shit, like this is real and a lot of these songs are based in facts, even if they may, in this case, kind of glamorize it and make them like it's just the way our culture kind of embraced these people. And in the end I kind of embraced Willie Sutton Like I'd love to hug this dude. This guy just seems like one of those people that even as law enforcement you're like you know what I got to give you props? Because in the game when we look back of cops and you know cops and robbers we play as kids.
Speaker 2:This guy was the robber and that and that game is a child that you always wanted to meet and, of course, since he didn't actually hurt people, it makes him a lot more likable as a character, exactly which also gives us the ability to have a little bit more fun with this.
Speaker 1:So you know, god bless slick willie wherever he is and may. We have helped kind of keep his story alive and also bring attention to the things that he did to help make us a better society by being willing to come out afterwards, admit his crimes and then say not only did I commit these crimes, but here's how you can prevent them.
Speaker 2:Definitely.
