Deviant Criminology
Dr. Richard Weaver Jr., Heather Kenney, and Rachel Czar take listeners on a journey through the world of true crime. With their unique careers in the criminal justice and academic world; they work to provide an entertaining and educational experience for listeners. This podcast examines many areas of true crime including; the formation of laws, cases that defined caselaw, and crimes that impacted the world. Please join us on this journey as we transition from professionals in criminal justice and academia to budding podcasters.
Deviant Criminology
Brothers in Civil Service
Two brothers share their journey through decades of emergency services, exploring how childhood experiences and family influence shaped their careers in firefighting and law enforcement. Their candid conversation reveals the true nature of first responder life beyond the uniforms.
• Growing up at a dangerous intersection where regular accidents occurred prepared them for careers in emergency services
• First traumatic calls created lasting memories that still remain vivid decades later
• Coping with trauma requires various mechanisms including dark humor, peer support, and professional counseling
• The unique "family dynamic" between first responders creates bonds that transcend personal differences
• Working in the same city created interesting intersections between fire service and law enforcement
• Mental health challenges are real and seeking help is essential for survival in these professions
• The importance of staying victim and family-focused even during the most difficult calls
• Advice for civilians: remember first responders are human beings trying to help others in crisis
If you're enjoying the podcast, please follow us, like or rate us on whatever system you're listening to us on, subscribe to our podcast and download episodes. Visit our website at www.deviantcriminology.com or find us on Facebook and Instagram @Deviant_Criminology.
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All right. So this is another episode of Deviant Criminology. This is kind of a special episode. Heather and Rachel both kind of have some family things going on, so I decided to try and do something a little bit different. So I have brought the Mario to my Luigi, if you would like to introduce yourself, man.
Speaker 3:I'm Michael and I happen to be his big brother.
Speaker 2:Yes, so this is my, my big brother, michael. Mike and I obviously not only grew up together but somehow ended up in civil service Me going the EMS and law enforcement route, and he was a lot more professional and able to keep his career going as a firefighter and also an EMT. So I wanted to kind of take the opportunity and do this kind of special episode, kind of just talking about like where, how we ended up, where we did, kind of almost like a reflection of like that dying remembrance. Like the light's about to fade and you're seeing your past, uh, your past flash before your eyes. So I guess kind of like kind of where it starts out for us is really mom. I think so like you kind of want to talk about because you were there a little bit more with kind of just responding to things that happened at the amazing intersection we lived at.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for the house we grew up in the summer, you know, game show wasn't. If there was going to be a bad wreck right out in front of the house, it was going to be how many and how bad for the summer. And you know, if you remember you know it was it was bad enough that we actually had go bags in that front little living room closet with towels, bandages, you know, bottled water, all that kind of crap and everything. And it was, you know. You'd hear the wreck and look out the window and mom would start. You know. Hey, you know, grab a bag, grab two bags, you know. And next thing, you know, we're out in the middle of the street and you know our neighborhood street was fine but the cross street was a frickin' four-lane US highway, so we had some pretty ugly things growing up and you know what?
Speaker 2:two house fires? Yeah, two house fires right there. One of them was started by kids throwing matches in a empty what they thought was an empty gas, can not realizing that it's the fumes. And that was my friend actually. I went to high school with uh well, elementary school with that caused that, with some other kids playing around. But yeah, I always remember like every old towel went into the closet and they were used for one of two things responding to whatever car accident happened in the street, or kittens, like somehow I just remember there were a lot of kittens born in that house, like it was just very, but I think it was like kind of mom, like she just had that nature, like you don't ignore things when they happen, um, and then being brought up in that environment where you're helping people.
Speaker 3:I know that was really a an influence at a young age, I know, on me yeah, and I think part of it too was, you know, the local fire station got, you know, knew when it was meatloaf night also, because you know mom would use the smoke detector for the timer for the meatloaf and somehow cause a grease fire almost every time. But I think that probably had a lot for me too. But what I didn't realize was, you know, I wanted to do this as a kid and everything. But what was funny is right after mom and dad got married and we moved to Indianapolis apparently that's when she started meeting the local firefighters there was an incident at the very first house I lived in and I found a photograph of me in the front yard of that house wearing one of the firefighters coats and helmet, and I didn't even know that picture ever existed. So for me and everything, like you said, for us as kids, I think we were just kind of, I mean, led that way just from the way things happened and the way mom was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I also think, um, so for those just tuning in, uh to kind of chapter 45, page 196 of my my dad, and then you also have your father. But your dad was, I mean, he served, he was in the military, he did law enforcement, and then our dad did 25 years in the Navy as well. So both I mean kind of we were always surrounded by people in uniform that were kind of serving in some way, and I don't know, I know that had an influence on me going in the Navy, but so did also not wanting to go to jail. So well get into that?
Speaker 3:Well, we always. We had a running bet for a long time and everything you know that we knew you were going to end up on one side of the law or the other, either in jail or putting people in jail. Yeah, one side of the law or the other, either in jail or putting people in jail.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so when did you cause? I don't kind of remember this.
Speaker 3:When did you first get into like civil service? Um, it was literally. It was literally like two months after we got married and it was October of 98. Um, when I first became a volunteer, I had already taken my EMT class and got my certification around the same time, had applied for where I work now and was just waiting through that process but got on with a volunteer department. I was like you know what, let's just go this route and try it out and see if I like it. And that first night of training and everything I was, you know, just pretty much hooked.
Speaker 2:I remember. So there was two ways. One, ems just kind of felt right when I got out. I think you were already doing it at that point and I had started working as a corpsman with the Navy, the navy so I was really interested in. So I got certified and, yeah, like the first night of training, because I started emt basic first and it was really interesting because that was a short class, like if you're interested in ems basic, like you can do that on your own, like there are places you take. I went to a career place in indianapolis and took it, but it wasn't really until that.
Speaker 2:First when you go through EMT school, like the last week, you have to do a ride along and I'll always remember that first ride along. The first time the sirens came on, we were running emergent to a cardiac and there was a Gorillaz song on. I will never forget that. That was like 23 years ago and that song every time still gets me hyped because that was the first song that was playing when I ran Emergent. Is there anything like that? Is there something that happened that always grains in that first run? Oh God For me.
Speaker 3:It's how I have a hard time forgetting a lot of things I wish I could. We'll get to that, you know. Yeah, no, the very very first call I had on my first ride along August, in the middle of the country, neighbors reported a horrible smell. Guy hadn't been seen for five days. No AC in the house. Yeah, you see where I'm going with this yeah, I had a.
Speaker 2:I had a similar call.
Speaker 3:I'll let you finish yours, you know yeah, you know, the whole five day old dead guy in the house in August with no AC. Yeah, and that was, you know, the very first call I had, you know, my first ride along and everything and it was like, yeah, this, this sucks, but you know, was that?
Speaker 2:was it like natural causes?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I don't think I ever heard I think they assumed so because he was an older guy I had a case like that that I got sent to a house a welfare check and got to the house, couldn't see anything. So we walked to the perimeter and I remember looking in the window and there were tons of flies on the kitchen window and we're like that's a bad sign. So my sergeant was like well, kick in the door. So we went to the back, tried to kick down that door, could not budge that door. So of course there starts though, and we'll get into like kind of how that's dealt with. But him talking shit, like you know, oh, come on, like be a man, like kick the door. So we went around the front and I kicked the entire door frame in because I was like over adrenaline, like fuck this guy talking smack.
Speaker 2:So but when we got to the back, this guy was a vietnam veteran and he had barred every. He had four steel bars across that back door, so there was no way we were getting in. Uh, in fact it was bad enough that we thought there were booby traps, but yeah, when, when we got in, he had definitely he had already started almost mummify. So it had been about five days and initially it looked suspicious. And that one just will always stick with me because we could tell exactly when he had passed, because he always took notes of like every bathroom break. He took like everything. He took very detailed diaries of it. No-transcript.
Speaker 3:Well, at the time I kind of, you know, needed a decent job and you know everything to.
Speaker 3:You know the whole married, getting married thing and all that, um, but no, I just, you know, because I'd looked at other things, kind of forgot, you know, you said, oh, you know, when you're a kid, hey, I wanted to be a fireman, I want to be an astronaut, I want to do, you know, whatever you know, I want to, you know, wear a fuzzy orange wig and make balloon animals for, you know, for kids.
Speaker 3:Um, but sometimes you get away from that and I had, but it just, I don't know. It just kind of came back around, like you know, some things in life do. And you know, I was like, you know, my wife and I had talked about it and it was like, okay, you know, you know, hell, let's give it a shot and see what happens. But then again, that's why, you know, after applying and testing and all that, I was like, hey, this is a good way to find out if it's something that might be for me to go the volunteer route because it's a lot easier to get on with the volunteer department. And it just, yeah, just kind of came around and there you go.
Speaker 2:And that was kind of different for me because I don't think I mean it was pretty known Like I kind of was a troublemaker as a kid. Like I got into some trouble, I ran with some rough crowds, um, okay, to say the least, I that was a y'all can't see his face, but it was definitely some bug eyes, like you know. But it wasn't until like after I got out of the military, when I was in the military and I've talked about this on different episode um, after Columb got me interested in just kind of the psychology of how something like that happened and I tried to start college. It went to shit the first time I went. But I was really interested in criminal psychology and I was talking to some guys that I knew where I was living at the time and they're like, if you're interested, why not try to be a police officer? That's the best way to try and make an impact in this field, especially in the area you're talking about, about violence prevention and stuff. And that's kind of how it was.
Speaker 2:Almost by happenstance I was an EMT at the time. I applied not really thinking I'd get it, and I think it took two months and I got hired and did it for a while until I pissed off enough people and got sick enough that I just couldn't do it anymore. But what was it like for you? Like going through training? I?
Speaker 3:don't know, it was kind of weird because you know it didn't. You know getting into more of the mental aspect of it and you know it was a good thing. They probably didn't do psych evals on us at the time, but I mean I actually enjoyed it. It'll kick your ass and all that and everything, but I enjoyed it. I enjoy a lot of it and stuff, but it was not meant to tear you down, but it definitely pushes you and stresses you to the point of it's meant.
Speaker 3:Best way to describe training is it's meant to prepare you but at the same time it's meant to show you okay, can you do this? Is it? Is this the right spot for you? After all? You know cause you can go through the first two weeks and be like, oh, hey, this is great. And then all of a sudden, all right, now it's ass-kicking time and different departments are different on their training and everything. Ours is unbelievably better now than it was even four years ago. But at some point it gets to the point where it's like, all right, you know, enough glad handing and all that kind of stuff. We're putting the books down and we're going out and you know, hey, you know, here's a training, building that room and there's on fire. Have fun.
Speaker 2:How much of it like? Obviously a lot of it's about how to fight a fire, which in my aspect is run, but you know, you're the one that runs into them.
Speaker 3:Um, but um, how much of it back then, compared to now, was medical as well. Um, see, it's, it's different because for us, like before, like when I applied near thing, you had to have your EMT you know minimum of your EMT basic before you got hired on Um, and you know, of course, too, you know the state that I'm in is there a lot of states they have. They use the national registry for their you know their EMS certifications, industry for their you know their EMS certifications. The state I'm in is our board of EMS is above, I mean, goes beyond that and everything. So it's, it's a different setup here. You know, back then we had to have it. Now we have changed because numbers dropped on, you know, for people testing and all that because you got a lot of people that Wait, you guys can fucking read Okay, sorry, well, yeah, okay, sorry, yeah, well, yeah you know well, you know shapes and colors, you know, and for me you know, being colorblind and everything you know, shapes you know, point at the dog.
Speaker 3:But it's now because the numbers dwindled for the testing and everything like bad. I mean, it was like when I tested there was like 800 people. We had to borrow two of the largest lecture halls at you know the university here in town and for two days and stuff to get everybody in testing. And here, you know, four or five years ago we were getting like I think one test was 37 people, but a lot of that was because you got people that the way they do the EMS here and stuff like that, the EMT classes or schooling is longer, you have to have so many hours and everything and all this People either didn't have the time because of their jobs they had currently, or they couldn't afford it, or a combination thereof, and all that Schooling was limited back then too.
Speaker 3:The university here now, at least I think it's either the university or the actual school system that shares the same name they actually have a technical school now that does an EMT course and stuff, um, and also, you know, like some nursing and all that kind of stuff. So that actually helps people. Now too, um. But, like now, the way we do our Academy is you don't have to have your EMT to get hired on now, um, but once you get done with the fire Academy part is and I can't remember if it's an extra four or six weeks that will do the ems part and everything and then get you ready to test.
Speaker 3:You have two chances to pass the test. If you don't, bye, felicia, um. But also you have to sign a contract saying that you will stay with the department for a minimum of two years, because me personally, I feel it should be three years, because where we're situated and all that you've got, I mean you can go four different directions and hit bigger cities and all this kind of stuff and I still think two years is not enough for somebody to get rooted in to where they might not still leave, and we'll be like, screw it, I'm out of stuff. And I still think two years is not enough for somebody to get, you know, rooted in to where they might not still leave, and you know we'll be like, screw it, I'm out of here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just that that return on investment of how much you're putting into somebody and then another department kind of snakes your people away so you're spending more money, right? How, how? How long was that training? Um?
Speaker 3:I don't remember. It's longer now than when, cause they revamped everything. If you know about 10 years ago, Go with now. What was it now I honestly don't remember. I want to say I want to say like 144 hours, 164 hours, something like that. Um, I could be wrong. I could be thinking of paramedic no, I don't know. I could be thinking of paramedic no, I don't know. I think paramedics are paramedics. Two years, Because paramedics are damn near a freaking college degree out here now.
Speaker 2:Well, because I know for the police academy I went to two. One was nine weeks and that was because that was more of a special assignment, that wasn't a full police academy. The second one was six months and of course I had some of the bait, all the stuff you think police would go through pistol, firearm taser, all the laws and all that. Is there anything when you went through that you wish they would have trained you about that?
Speaker 3:they didn't. For me it was different because I got a lot of training with the volunteer department before I got on with the city. So me and the guy that got hired on with me, we both already had a lot of those fire certifications out of the way. So our academy was actually shorter than what it is now. Now it's 12 weeks. I think ours was like four at the time, but again, things were a lot different then.
Speaker 3:So I mean yeah, I mean I can say that there's a lot, but nothing I can. You know, I mean hell, I'm going into my 25th year and you know, with this department, 27 years total. So I'm kind of like I don't know. Kind of like I don't know. It's kind of hard to think back to. You know, okay, what did we do and what didn't we do that you know could have helped? So back, you know, back then it was more okay, we're going to give you the absolute basics. And then you know, here's your, your, your book to finish up over the next year, for your officers to run you through and sign you off on other things too. Where it's it's different now.
Speaker 2:I mean it's a ton better now for these kids yeah, I mean I just think about that because, like when I went through the academy, looking back and I know we're getting better about it, uh, we've had a lot of conversations from what I do now but would have been like de-escalation and more understanding of mental health. I think that's something that's gotten a lot harder to spot and more common, especially with the opioid epidemics and stuff like that's just something I wish I'd have known more about. I do now. I mean I'm a mental health expert but back then, when you're just coming out of the academy with no college or anything, that would have been something great to know. Like, oh, what's the difference between somebody that's in a diabetic shock and somebody that's schizophrenic or somebody that's having a reaction to drugs? Those are three different responses, but if you're not trained to it, you may accidentally shoot or harm somebody that's actually in a mental distress.
Speaker 3:So that was something that always worried me, right, and the thing too back then was, I mean, there was a different mentality for a lot of that stuff too, because I had a lot of these older guys that were not as gruff and crotchety as the guys that brought them up, and you know that old mentality of you know, rub some dirt on it, I don't care if your, you know, your leg's broken in four places, your ankles up by your ear, here's some duct tape, you know. Here you go. You know, but here again too, ems I'd have to say ems and the fire service is, I mean, it's not in its infancy anymore. It's kind of like looking at it in this, you know, teenager early, early 20 time frame at this point, um, because I mean, when I got hired on, there were still guys on the job that were grandfathered in, that were not certified, you know, ms, certified um, and, like you're saying so, they weren't used to dealing with, you know, people on that level. Of course, again too, they, you know, some of them were grumpy enough that, you know, for lack of a better term, you know it was like, oh, you know, fuck them, give them a Band-Aid or, you know, tell them to drink some Pepto-Bismol, and here you go.
Speaker 3:So I mean that's changed a lot. It's definitely become for a lot of places. I mean in general, general, you run more ems calls and you do fires, you know, and stuff like that. But you know, you look at two is your ems rolls into the fires, ems rolls into, you know, the car wrecks, obviously, and stuff. So there isn't a whole lot that we do anymore that there isn't the high potential of EMS being in it somehow. I mean even like your hazmat, your technical rescues, you know, your water rescues, all that. I mean there's 99 times out of 100, you're going to have some sort of EMS. You know issue with a call hundred.
Speaker 2:You're going to have some sort of EMS you know issue with a call. Yeah, and I know, within law enforcement, like I was lucky because I already had EMS but a lot of places were going and having law enforcement even get EMT certified, because a lot of your calls are some type of medical that needs to be done, you know, even if it's basic combat first aid or something. So especially with gunshots and things. But another interesting thing about our past was that we did work in the same city for a while, yep, so that led to some interesting things. Um, supposedly some shit.
Speaker 2:I did stuff that you remember because I don't, but that's usually because I'm a little bit more dynamic. I think the the first one I heard about was. So I'll set the scene for people. One of the most common things like law enforcement does is car stops, and I've never been a serious person. So how I became a cop in the first place, I don't ever fucking know. Honestly, I do much better as a professor than I do ever did law enforcement, but I love the job.
Speaker 2:But there was, I remember there was a car, it was a couple of kids in it blaring a stereo and I'm just gonna be honest, it sounded like shit. It definitely sounded like shit. So I pulled them over to tell them that there was a, an item called dynamite uh, matt that they could put in the trunk so it wouldn't vibrate, because they had 15s in their trunk. I didn't know, because obviously it's a big department, I didn't know everybody, especially the detectives and stuff, but I guess there were two guys that were standing on the side of the corner that knew you and had heard this interaction and then later told you about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I vaguely remember that. Yeah, I vaguely remember that.
Speaker 2:I kind of had some smart ass moments when I was on duty. I used to pull people over and tell them there were cops pulling people over, slow down in that same city. So it might have, might have been one of the things. I think it was weird for us and I want to ask about this. I don't think I ever have because, like a lot you know, firefighter and law enforcement is very different to a point like we work well together, but it's two very different but extremely dangerous jobs on both ends. And you got a call one day that I was involved in a shooting and I don't think I've ever asked. I wasn't shot let's get that clear but shots are fired and I did have to use deadly force. But I called you and I don't think I've ever asked like what that was like on your end.
Speaker 3:Well, the first word I got before you got a hold of me was your girlfriend got at the time, got a hold of me, and so that started the whole thing, because the first words out of her mouth was richie's been shot. And I'm like, okay, hang on what? And she, and she goes, she goes. Well, no, no, richie shot somebody. I'm like, okay, you need to get the story straight because I'm the one that's got to call mom next.
Speaker 3:Yeah I really like to know which one it is. So then she explained, okay, what actually happened. And then, once I got hung up with her, you called me and everything. Um, it uh, I don't know it was kind of, you know, surreal. I mean a I was relieved that you weren't on the receiving end, you know, so kind of surprised some people, yeah but, but right, but you know it's, and you know there's times when you know my fuse is so short it's inverted, but a lot of times when you know stuff, I'm I'm pretty good at sitting back and say, okay, let me get all the information, you know, first, before I either punch somebody or jump out the window. Um, so I mean, once you explained it and everything, it's like, okay, you know, I had the scenario.
Speaker 3:It was, I was good with the fact that you were physically good and all that. At that point for me it was okay. You know, basically it was okay big brother mode. You know I knew that I was, you know, coming down to be with you and help you out and and all that kind of stuff and everything. So it was more, you know, okay, I gotta, you know, watch him. You know, see how he's handling it. You know, you know if you're okay and all that kind of stuff, because it's not something that I've had to do but I've, you know. You know I've always been really good friends with with a lot of you know the cops around here, so it wasn't the first time I'd, you know, seen the look on the face when it's happened to me. I'd actually run some of those calls.
Speaker 2:Well, that happened. That happened right next to the station you were assigned to at the time too. Like one block away, yep.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I just happened to be off duty. But yeah, no, it was. You know, like I said, once it got out of the way that you were physically safe and unharmed, it was just okay. You know I need to, you know, go take care of my little brother and all that, and I mean just kind of went with it at that point.
Speaker 2:And and I think that's something like that, excuse me, that I kind of want to like talk about a little bit is like just the anxiety and trauma that comes from these fields, like lo and behold, like that was so traumatic for me. It was a whole type of traumatic experience. But when you're seeing this stuff like every day, like how do you on an individual level kind of cope with that and deal with that? Because, like you said, sometimes it's hard to forget the things that we've done and seen.
Speaker 3:It's you know it's funny because I was actually just talking to somebody about this Tuesday night. They were kind of asking me different things because it was a field they thought about getting into but just didn't. So we were talking about it. It's a lot of. It is a case by case, you know, thing depends on the severity.
Speaker 3:The I mean the age range is huge they're talking about who you're seeing, or yeah, yeah, I mean the age range of, like, who you're treating, what's happening, um, you know the cause, causality of things, um, the end result, um, you know, and it was like I was telling this guy the other night you know, it's pretty bad when you've got a top 10 list for the worst accidents you've ever run and you're like, okay, well, uh, and then you turn around and run one going oh well, you know, I, I just, you know, I'm putting a new one on the top 10 list and move in. You know, shuffling crap around, um, or you know, and the thing is the majority of those top tens. Or you know, and the thing is the majority of those top tens you know, we're talking about the whole, not forgetting stuff the majority of those. I can sit there, I can tell you where. I can still tell you vehicles, types, makes, models, colors, what they were wearing. You know all this kind of stuff. You know, calls with kids are absolutely horrible.
Speaker 3:There's been times when you know we've gotten back to the station and I've literally just sat. I wouldn't get off the truck, I'd literally just sit there by myself. You know, wouldn't even off the truck, I'd literally just sit there by myself. You know, wouldn't even open the door, just like, all right, you know everybody else is away. You know, give me my time. So, yeah, I mean it's just, you know we deal with things differently. The interaction at the station depending on, depending on everything you know, it'll morph, it'll be, you know, for the worst cause. It'll be serious at first. You know quiet discussing hey, you know, yeah, we did this, we did this, something we could have done better. And then, of course, it'll turn to our, you know, self-therapy. You know a little bit later on and stuff, but it's, yeah, I mean, it's different.
Speaker 2:So yeah, how do you like, how do you personally deal with it? Like what is kind of your methods that you've used, cause I mean you've got 27 years of, like vicarious trauma. Like what are your coping mechanisms?
Speaker 3:Um, like I said, I mean it's. It goes back to that case by case thing. I mean there's times when I'm sure I deal with it properly by, you know, talking with the guys at the station. Or you know, there's times when you know, and I didn't, for you know, do this for a long time. But now I've gotten to where, you know, my wife has talked me into calling her and talking to her if I need to, about, you know, about calls.
Speaker 3:Um, there's other times when I probably should do that, but I get you know I don't feel like it's really hitting me, so I'm like, oh okay, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then later on, oh hey, you know what you know maybe we should do, you know, do something as a team or whatever, and talk about it. And that's one thing too that our department and me specifically, over the last, you know, six, seven, eight years has done. We will do kind of our own debrief on bad stuff, because I don't want my guys going home, and you know so I think that helps me too is, you know, when letting them get their stuff out kind of helps Also, I mean, I've got a really good counselor and you know I don't have a problem admitting that.
Speaker 2:I think that's great.
Speaker 3:I mean, being somebody who specializes in mental health, I think getting help is great, right, and you know, and definitely and I learned the hard way finding the right one I mean, you know, just because they're a counselor doesn't mean they work for you. You know, you get a counselor that you look at and be like, hey, well, let's take a walk over here by this cliff and look at the scenery, yeah, that you look at and be like, hey, let's take a walk over here by this cliff and look at the scenery, absolutely yeah, and that's like the more solemn side of it. But what a lot of people don't hear or see. Or when some do, they look at us, like you know, get this little kind of horrified, you know what is wrong with you, look on their face. You get this little kind of horrified, you know what is wrong with you, look on their face.
Speaker 3:But there is some dark humor that is very therapeutic in our field and it's not like we're making light of it because we don't care or anything, but sometimes you just have to say something off the wall or whatever, not maybe for that specific person or incident, but just in general. And of course you know we'll say stuff that has nothing to do with it, but it's just. That's another coping mechanism for us to get us OK. Hey, you know what? Snap back to reality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's something that's hard for people to understand, especially people that have never worked. And you know the military, law enforcement, ems, fire, public school teachers, that like that type of trauma, that you see a lot Social workers as well. Like it's not the gallows. Humor isn't really a lack of empathy at all. Actually it's kind of a stronger empathy to a point. But if you can't find a way to laugh through it it will fucking destroy you. You know, and I think a lot of people and law enforcement and fire, the military is getting better as well, but really pushing like mental health and seeking that Like that's great. I'm glad people are taking advantage of that. Some law enforcement departments and fire I assume as well have hired social workers and psychologists for inside the department.
Speaker 2:Me personally it's nicotine, caffeine, dark humor. You know the thought every once in a while I could take a toaster bath if it gets too bad. You know those are the things that keep me going. You know that's the kind of that dark humor, um, but I think you have to find those ways of coping with it, especially. And for fire and EMS, I think uh, and law enforcement it is a different type of stress to a point, because I'm sure you can think of like one incident that just sticks in your mind. That is just like that one incident that still, for some reason, sticks in your head.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's, I wish there was just one. The calls like that challenge more than just your. You know empathy and it challenges your anger management something fierce also. But um, yeah, I mean, and I'll be honest with you, um, and you know this is one of the one of the ones that's hit me hardest over the last 10 years was we had one that was an older woman. I say older, this is going to hit you a little bit. You're going to notice some similarities for us, but 56-year-old woman Was she shot, no coated. We worked our asses off, couldn't get her back.
Speaker 3:We weren't in the best of neighborhoods but the way the family I mean I think the family lived in like five of the houses right there on the corner and all the neighbors and stuff kept coming out. But it was a lot of the family reaction and stuff like that. And when we got back to the station, I sat there for a while and the aimless crew came to the station too, because I was like, hey, you know we need to get the hell out of here. But they could see the look on my face because a lot of the pain that they were verbalizing and that I could see. I remember feeling but not being able to let out.
Speaker 3:You know, when you and dad called yeah About mom and that one, that's one, that one of the non-traumatic ones that really stuck with me. That I can, you know, I can tell you which family members, what half of them were wearing. You know all this kind of stuff and so it's not always a physically you know trauma event. It can be watching just a family fall apart because everything you did still wasn't enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that that's especially when you have your own. I mean, that's one thing that's hard. So many people just see the uniform and like, oh, they're made to be able to deal with type of stress and everything. But it's not just what happens at work. Like we have families, you have, you know, kids and mothers and fathers and you know, like I said, our mom died, you know, while we're still in those fields. But for me, like there's this one call I'll always remember.
Speaker 2:We got called to a young girl in an apartment complex, found a teddy bear in her room that she didn't know about, hadn't seen it, and when they looked at it further they found a camera. So we showed up, did the basic investigation. It was a camera. We realized there was a tech guy on hand that responded with us and realized that the camera wasn't recording. It was like a webcam. It had to be coming from someplace close by.
Speaker 2:Through the investigation, talking to the two daughters in the house, we were able to identify that mom's boyfriend lived right across the street in the same apartment complex. When we told mom she didn't want us to push charges and talked her daughter out of pushing charges and daughter's 15. So there's nothing that we could do at that point. Like daughter's not willing to press because mom doesn't want to press, you know, mom's like staying with the guy, like has no problem with this, I guess, and that just always kind of bothered me and that's one of those that stuck with me.
Speaker 2:Like you do this job but you still have to walk away knowing that there are these people in the world that would do something like this and you can't do anything about it and it just kind of tears at you a little bit. And that's kind of what I think also breaks, you know, balances, that line between being the law and breaking the law. You know, you, that line between being the law and breaking the law. You want to do something but you don't, because you're, hopefully, to the point, the good guy. It doesn't always feel that way, but you want to be. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't know how many domestic abuse and assaults that have been on. Yeah, I kind of feel the same way. And then turn around and hey, three weeks later you're right back there again and it's like, okay, you know, I thought you were done with this and leaving. Well, you know, and I I don't a hundred percent get it. But I understand more now because somehow over the last four or five years I actually became the voice of reason in a lot of situations. I don't know when that happened and whoever turned that switch on. I want to punch them, but probably, yeah, um, but it I've come to understand. You know that fear in that you know more. I mean, I still don't understand. You know, hey, just get the hell out. But you know, some of these people just feel like they have nowhere to go.
Speaker 2:So I do understand it, but it is stressful for us because, again, you know we're there to kind of pick up the broken people and you know, when it keeps happening and happening, it's like all right, you know and I think like that was something like domestics, I think, were one of the hardest things to do A they're always the most dangerous, really, at least if you're going to like a drug deal gone bad or something you know to expect violence when you go to a and you know clearly, like who's the victim, who's the suspect. But when you go to a domestic it can turn so fast. The person that was a victim suddenly becomes assailant because you're about to arrest the person in their lives and they have that fear that when you arrest them they're going to come back and do more harm. But at the same time, being a social worker, I also learned a lot about the control of money and the control of access to children and stuff and how especially somebody that's willing to be an aggressor, all the things they do to manipulate somebody to keep them from leaving, and how hard it becomes. So I think domestics probably for both sides, are the hardest to do, because you're treating you don't understand and as law enforcement, you're like I keep coming back here. Then you have to just keep doing it and unfortunately one of two scenarios either they leave or you come back for the last time. Uh, and that's hard to deal with as well.
Speaker 2:But the the next thing I'd ask about that, because this is kind of really what brought this it was. It was I was surprised by how little there was talking about, like just for you, the firehouse and me, like the roll call room in general, of like the relationships that you build with the people that you work with and how, when you, you know you really don't know you've never had like a normal nine to five job where you go into like an office and you talk to some people and then you leave like there's a much bigger bond you have with the people you work with, even the people that you're like. I will throw you off a fucking 10 story building if I ever get the chance, but while we're in this building we have to be cool and back each other, no matter what. It's just a different type of brotherhood I guess brotherhood is kind of the wrong word now but almost a family dynamic that happens when you work in that field, almost a family dynamic that happens when you work in that field.
Speaker 3:Yeah, especially for us, because we live, you know, we live each other 24 hours at a time. Some departments actually 48, you know cause I've gone to 48, 96 shifts and everything which, yeah, no, but yeah, I mean there's times, even with somebody, you get along great with it every once in a while, just like siblings. You know somebody looks at your, are they're having a bad day or you know they just, you know, pushed one too far and you know they got the fart needles so they're hurting or whatever, and you know it's like. So there's that always that dynamic, but yeah, it's, it is different. I mean, you know, when you're on and, like you said, there can even be a difference between on and off shift. I mean, I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 3:There's a couple people I've worked with that you know, off duty I wouldn't, you know, piss in their mouth if their guts were on fire, but on duty I'll be damned if I'm gonna let anything happen to them. Um, you know, and that's with my position and everything. Now I mean I consider my number one job is making sure my guys go home. That that is where I'm at and you know we've got it's not just me and my. You know we've got it's not just me and my company and we've got another company and everything you know stuff.
Speaker 3:So there's more of us. But I, you know, and I kind of kind of look after the other guys on the other truck too, and that's just. But again, that's how you and I were also raised. You know, we we watch after everybody else and stuff like that, and you know we'll take the hard crap and all that and but yeah, it is, it's like another family, I mean a little more dysfunctional than your own family, but it is. It's a different dynamic that a lot of people don't quite understand either.
Speaker 2:And it's a different. Like I was joking, I've joked a lot lately with people because I have a tendency to show up A to sit in my car a lot. When you're EMT or cop you spend a lot of time sitting in your vehicle, but I also will show up like an hour early and that's just because I now have this fear that I'm going to be late and not where I need to be. So I will show up an hour early just because out of fear. I don't know if that's from the military or law enforcement or both, but I know that, like for me, like I had camaraderie and I had a lot of good people I've worked with from all walks of life, um, and you get to know each other really well. I mean again, you're spending 8, 10, 12, 24 hours a day in vehicles with them or on scenes with them and stuff. And I think that also goes to the damage going back to kind of the post-traumatic stress disorder which I mean I know I have. I mean I've got the trifecta the depression, anxiety, the PTSD, and I'm open about that. But like those calls I got when two of my friends were killed out there in the line of duty two different incidences. One was a car stop, both were car stops. One was a car stop when it was just an individual and the other was a car stop and he was killed with another officer. And just like how personal that is, like it's literally like having a family member ripped from you.
Speaker 2:And I think and I know the law enforcement side and you probably know the firefighting side because you've done some of the um, oh shit, what is the thing you did for a long time? The honor guard stuff, the honor guard stuff, like I know that we have, uh, law enforcement has a much higher than average rate of suicide, just because people dealing with the stress and not seeking help and it just building on them, um, that it's. It's deadly for both fields at different levels. But from physical, mental, I mean, you fuckers drop of heart attacks all the time. Um, I don't know why that drop of heart attacks all the time. I don't know why that is Sitting around eating all the time, playing video games and then maybe having to go do something once in a while. But no, I think and I think that's the other thing people may not understand is like the rivalry but yet camaraderie, like fire and police. Genuinely. It's like oil and water for the most part, but that's the game. Like it's still family. It's just a dysfunctional one right.
Speaker 3:Well, and you remember when you were here, I mean things were bad between the two. Oh yeah, there for a while and then that's that's when, you know, I started that whole. Hey, let's play a football game together so we can, you know, get it out and not do it on the street. Well, yeah, um, it ended up. I mean, things are a lot better now, we get along a lot better and stuff. And of course, again to you know, it's one of those things where I show a little bit of respect and care and you know, you know, hopefully you'll get it back. But yeah, it's, you know and you know to just to the, you said something about the whole. You know the eating sitting around, you know playing video games and all that. I just want to go on the record and say, hey, it takes a lot of time, effort and a serious training to get certified to drive a recliner. Okay, it does. I'm just saying Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I do think that that's one thing. People are going to listen to this and be like Jesus. What the fuck are they talking about? This is a stream of consciousness. There's no script to this. We just kind of wanted to talk about some stuff that we'd experienced, but I think that is something we learned from our mom that I think more departments need to take on. That we've always tried to do everywhere we go. It doesn't always take, but it's kind of that always trying to be bridge builders and trying to bring people together and sometimes that works in these fields and sometimes it doesn't, but I do think that that's a skill that we had that I wish more people in civil service had. Instead of sometimes trying to see this as a competition for the next rank up is more of a. If we all work together, we all benefit.
Speaker 3:Right, and I agree, and I think that's too, and you know, for, like you said, the next rank up or like the in between the two departments kind of thing. You know you can sit there and if you're on the same scene then you know you got. You know, alpha, you know law enforcement over here, alpha, firefighter here. No, this is my scene. No, this is my scene You're going to. You know, and you know that kind of stuff, thankfully around here does not happen as often as it used to, but you know every once in a while, especially if you get that newer kid that you know. You know well, you know I do this stuff in the military and all that kind of stuff and not knocking military. You know, you know I would never do that.
Speaker 2:Look, we are special children. Okay, we're all brokey, we all come out of the military brokey and a little special it's fine.
Speaker 3:But you know they have that mentality. And then, okay, now I'm a cop. And oh no, this is a car accident, this is my scene. But what's like okay, you know. And then that's when you know I have to. You know they're like, oh well, you need to move your truck. And you know, look at my driver, say you need to move your truck.
Speaker 3:And they're like you know, no, you know, I don't make that decision but law. And then they'll come and sit there and be like, you know, okay, well, he's ignoring me. And I love it when they come to me. And there's like he's ignoring me and I love it when they come to me. And they're like well, he's ignoring me, so who's in charge here and everything, so that I can get to move this truck? And I love it because I can grin at them and be like, well, that would be me, and my truck is not moving. So then you explain hey, this is why I've got to park there, because it's protecting your butt too.
Speaker 3:But it's that, like I said, actually had an officer look at me one time and say, well, this is a car crash, everything's on the street, this is my scene, you'll do what I say. And I looked at him and I was like, okay, well, I pulled out a spare pair of medical gloves and said here you treat the patient that's bleeding out, then We'll stand over here, since it's your scene and you're in charge. And he literally looked at me and said well, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like you can have this scene when my patient is gone and I make sure there are no hazards period.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there has to be kind of a breaching of the egos sometimes, and I mean I think the training and just the field does that. Like you put on a uniform I don't care what uniform it is you suddenly kind of have this arrogance about you. And it may not always be a bad thing, I mean it's a good thing for some. But I think the other thing that we don't talk about as much and we may, I think, joking amongst us, but like there's not a lot of conversations about it outside of our firehouses or outside of the roll call room and stuff but is the fact that like you've got captains and above both departments they're basically administrators and they're the professional level, but everybody below that is a fucking five-year-old and anytime command says don't do something. That is a fucking challenge and we will find a way to do it in the most messed up way possible. Very creative group of people when given low resources and a lot of free time.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, oh my God, yes, that is. That is a very good way to put it, just yeah. And the creativity for, yeah, doing stuff for your job, finding better ways to do stuff for your job, coping with things shenanigans yeah, finding better ways to do stuff for your job, coping with things shenanigans yeah, I mean it's definitely. And going back to the fireside and everything. I got guys at my station that if I have a question about cars I know who to call, no matter what the year of the car or the type Firearms. My driver is unbelievable. I mean, he's like a walking, just you know, supercomputer. You want something to know about building a house or dealing with a house?
Speaker 2:Why do you need a specialist on firearms? Fire hoses and super soakers are the ones that shoot water, just saying.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, you know what I like to do, the pew pew thing off duty. Okay, what you're doing, your own free time is on your dime, sir, that's right, um, but you know, like for building houses, um, you know, I just is, the fire service is an unbelievable amount of wealth walking around. You know of knowledge, walking knowledge, walking around, and you know, and law enforcement is too. I mean, you got guys that'll, you know, on that side, that know all that. You know all that stuff too. So it's, yeah, it's one of those careers and one of those jobs and everything, no matter which side you're on, that there's a, a lot of highly intelligent people now, you know, you know not all of them are, you know, book smart, but they're life smart hey, you know what?
Speaker 2:leave me out of this. All right. When I joined, when I joined military and when I got into law enforcement, yeah, but I learned after the fact. Yeah, but again I.
Speaker 2:I think the other, though, is you have to be careful of letting the people that you work with learn too much about you, because, um, when I was, when I was on the department out there and most of my life now it's gotten a little, a little out of hand, but I was always pretty skinny, which usually led to me getting thrown into attics to search for drugs and people. So that was always the downfall of everybody knowing that I was scrawny, because I would get called to scenes just to get thrown into an attic. So, um, I don't know if it was a joke or if it was really like, let's just see if we can get weaver stuck in the troll den that's above the house, um, but I uh, I mean, we've been talking about this for an hour and I'm hoping it's some good information. If there was anything that you could say to somebody that's getting into this job or interested in that side, what would you say to them?
Speaker 3:There's a lot of things that get tossed um, that I truly believe in, and some of it, you know, comes from the honor guard and stuff too. Number one is you got to take care of yourself, because if you don't take care of yourself mentally, physically, whatever at some point when you really need to, you're not going to do the you know that person you're there to help a damn bit of good and you may even make the situation worse, um, because you know now, okay, you're falling apart or something happens because you weren't paying attention. Now I got two, two situations to deal with instead of what we were initially here for To piggyback onto that. It's like, you know, with the Honor Guard and stuff like that, we would, you know, tell a lot of people. You know it's family.
Speaker 3:First, you know, if you got these, especially if you got these guys who you know they're younger and they have young kids and stuff, they're like some still come to work when their kids are like extremely ill or whatever, it's like no, dude, that is your rock to help you take care of you. So it's that's that's my two biggest things is you got to take care of yourself and you got to take care of your family. We're still going to be there. I mean just because you stay home to take care of your family, or you stay home because you know what that day your brain is just fried because you had a shit call the shift before and it's still beating you up. The department's still going to be there. You know, we got 230 other freaking people there. We ain't going anywhere.
Speaker 2:What would you say to non-civil service people that are listening to this? That might be important for them to know. I don't know. You're more than just a calendar. I don't know.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, trust me, I may be down 100 pounds, but you still don't want to see this in a calendar.
Speaker 2:I have. It's called Waluigi.
Speaker 3:Yeah, mustache jokes, I get it, you're just joking Mustache joke. I get it, you just joked Mustache joke.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what it was. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:I swear to God. There's something I really want to say, but we're on this podcast so I don't want to.
Speaker 2:There'll be an afterwards, go that far 45 years of traumatizing each other. We can wait another few minutes.
Speaker 3:Right has something to do with my dad and your mom? Um, my dad and your mom, um, no, it's. I guess it would depend on the conversation, because I mean, there's a lot of different conversations to be had. You know that can be had, um, you know, because we'll have a lot of civilians had. You know that can be had, um, you know, cause we'll have a lot of civilians ask well, you know, the one I hate is when they say what's the worst thing you've ever seen? Yeah, that that is a topic that does not get broached with somebody who does not do the job, and half the time, even if it's somebody from another department, I don't.
Speaker 2:That's, that's like the people, because I have students. I mean, I teach criminal justice, so I'll have students, stuff like well, have you ever shot anybody? That's not a fucking icebreaker, like you know. Just you know, you know what. I don't know what icebreakers are anymore. I'm learning some very troubling things hearing my students and people talk about the dating world anymore.
Speaker 3:So I'm glad I've been married for as long as I have, because I would fail. Yeah, I think a good one is hey, does this? You know napkin smell like chloroform, but you know it. I guess it'd be because you know it would have to be. You know, that's not something just like a general thing that's easy to answer, cause again it has to be like top of conversation. People say, yeah, well, you know, how do you? You know, like, what kind of calls you run or what you know, how do you deal with this or how do you deal with that, as far as kind of like we have but at the same time been like well, get on and say, hey, well, do you think it's right that you brought the fire truck to the grocery store? It's like you know we're here for 25 hours.
Speaker 2:we got to eat and if a call happens, do you want me to drive my Honda Civic back across town to get to the fire truck, to get to your house, or do you want me to come here in it? Like I'm just saying.
Speaker 3:Right, exactly, but, um, but when dealing with civilians, the best thing is, I mean always to. You know, to borrow a phrase from you know, and paraphrase Dalton Patrick Swayze be nice until it's time to not be nice, be respectful and everything. And you know, always, you know, be nice until it's time to not be nice, be respectful and everything. And you know, even sometimes, when they're having an attitude or whatever about how and I love the whole, hey, I pay your salary people, they're great, but it's, you know, just trying to explain things to them in a, you know, calm and, you know, educational manner. That's not condescending with things, um, which, again, somehow, over the last few years, I've been able to figure out how to do Somehow. Over the last few years, I've been able to figure out how to do.
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing that I would say to them and this is just from you know, of course, again teaching criminal justice stuff I look at the stats, I look at the data is open your fucking eyes, because a lot of firefighters, emts and police are killed just trying to work accidents on the side of the road or on car stops on the side of the road and have some fucking respect for the people that are trying to help. I'm not saying especially on the law enforcement side, that's a whole different conversation but when you're talking car accidents or medical situations, your firefighters, your EMTs and the cops that are blocking traffic and everything are trying to save people's lives. Like it may be an inconvenience for you that you're going to be late to work, but I'm sure as hell it's an inconvenience for the person that just got T-boned and is got a punctured lung and possibly dying in their car. Have some compassion for them too. That's probably one thing I'd say. Dying in their car. Have some compassion for them too.
Speaker 3:That's probably one thing.
Speaker 3:I'd say, yeah, and I have had to, you know, building on that, have had to tell people, hey, you know that have complained about certain things like, hey, well, this is going on, and you know I was late to work because of this, and I'd look at him and say, okay, so let me ask you this what if that was your child in the car they were taking out and rushing to the hospital?
Speaker 3:And you heard somebody saying exactly what you're saying to me right now, and I've had those conversations and the look they get on their face is like, oh crap, they don't think about that aspect of it. You've got people out there and you heard it, it here too and everything that think, okay, well, you know, a department that size is not necessary, you don't need that many people, blah, blah. And you kind of find you know those are the people that don't think it's necessary because they've never had to call. But once they have to call, holy shit, the world's coming to an end. Well, no, your son just broke his wrist, but you know. So it's a lot of those conversations and sometimes you have to remind them that you know if this was your family or you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the other is to remind, remind and this is just me again, my high horse to a point, but that we're people in these fields are fucking human too, you know, and broughting them and being angry at them, and you know we always joked in law enforcement, like you know, people throw shit and pull their guns when we show up and when firefighters show up, they get a ticker tape parade. Like you guys are like the heroes and we're the assholes. But I think in the end it's all one system that's trying to work to the betterment of other people and the stuff that we've seen. You know one person seeing it is bad enough, but when you see it every day and it is your life is seeing the horrible things you know you have a little compassion for what those people are going through and especially because what we're willing to tell you is only a billionth of what we're dealing with, and if somebody in this field is willing to open up to you, don't blow it off.
Speaker 3:Oh, totally agreed, and you know. Another thing too is, you know you'll get those that they'll ask you and, like you were saying, you know, what we're willing to tell you or what we are telling you is just a small fraction. It also especially like on our side, you know, because we're not, you know and I'm using air quotes here for those that can't see me, lucky people Um, this is an audio podcast. Right, yeah, I have a face for radio, um so um, but yeah, we're not law enforcement on the fire side.
Speaker 3:But there's still things you know from calls that we cannot talk about for one reason or another. A lot of it is for legality reasons, because, again, you interact and stuff. And you know there's people think, oh, you know, they're firefighters, blah, blah, whatever. Act and stuff. And you know there's people think, oh, you know, they're firefighters, blah, blah, blah, whatever. You know a lot of our stuff can't, you know, ends up being crime scenes at some point. You know, like, even you know, in unattended. You know, if somebody codes and there's nobody there to see it and it's unattended, it's a crime scene until they know for certain. Okay, this was just totally natural, you know. Know, yeah, he's 837 years old. His heart just stopped versus. Okay, did somebody break into the house and help?
Speaker 2:his heart stop. So um, then that's why people show up and trample the whole thing exactly um, but it's so, it's trying to.
Speaker 3:It amazes civilians how much, and even some of the younger guys that come on, they learn pretty quickly how much the two are actually intertwined. Yeah, absolutely, and stuff. So, you know, trying and again with the public, trying to explain that part of it with the public, and he tried to explain that part of it and you know it's just or they'll be like, well, hey, you know it was. You know, is Bob okay? What happened? Well, I can tell you, yeah, bob's okay, just got some issues we're dealing with. Well, what happened? Yeah, this is a medical call on a patient. There's something called hippo, hippo hypocrisy law. No, hippo laws. Thank you, um, that you know. I can't, you know, sit there and tell you. All I can tell you is, yeah, yeah, they're. You know they're gonna be all right and you know we're doing our job and the flip side of that is from law enforcement especially.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna I'm gonna call you know my former people out as much as I will say, for the is also being aware, after calls, what you say when you go for dinner or something, because I know of an incident that happened where I worked.
Speaker 2:I wasn't there but I know that there was an incident after an accident where some officers were not the most properly talking about an accident that happened and the people in the booth behind them were related to the victims and didn't know anything had happened. So that kind of goes back to that, even with gallows humor, like right place, right time out in public is not the right place back with your family and your hidden and when I say family I mean like the fire and EMS, uh, and law enforcement family, because you know that's who you can share it with. Sometimes you can't even take that stuff home to your own family and they try to figure out why you, you know you have nights where you're staring off and you're kind of out of it and you're I don't want to tell you because I don't want I chose to be exposed to this stuff.
Speaker 3:I don't want to expose you to that but yeah, you know what you were just saying there. And you know you know, because obviously we're related, but supposedly, yeah, right, um, that was, you know, I mean it meant english a mentality that I had for a long time and everything. And you know your, your sister-in-law, would be like hey, you know, I want you to talk to me about these things and all that. And I didn't because, like you just said, we have to see it. You know, when you're telling somebody a story and she'll argue this point of that, she can control this. But when you tell somebody a story, the human brain just naturally starts forming a picture and that's just the way it is. And I don't, I didn't want that happening.
Speaker 3:Um, anything but getting in this kind of goes along with the whole self care and you know, family and all that kind of stuff too, you know. You know. You know what seven, eight years ago, my marriage damn near tanked. You know, seven, eight years ago my marriage damn near tanked and a lot of it was because of the stuff that I kept it, the stuff that I didn't share, you know, and all that. And you know it took my severe head injury and being gone for, you know, four months completely for us to realize, hey, 80% of our problems were your fucking job and stuff. So I've, you know, I have opened up to her more again within reason, because you know you can't, and there's still stuff that I just details, stuff that she doesn't need to know.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's a thing that you definitely, definitely have to watch and keep it away from the kids as, like I know, I've traumatized Nancy like she's got paranoia about everything. But I mean I've seen horrible stuff so I mean I'm overprotective. But then you have to kind of go back and like deprogram that fear, but I see it as a healthy fear. Like you know, I've seen rape victims, I've seen sexual assault victims, I've seen murder victims, drug overdoses, the worst you can see and I transferred some of that, not meaning to but at the same time just the whole.
Speaker 2:Also, the point of this podcast when Heather Rachel, I started it was to be informative about what's out there, but also kind of what you've shown on your side and we didn't talk about it really beforehand. But also kind of how I am and really what I got into this for is being victim and patient focused. Like the podcast is not glorifying the criminals or the murderers or the stuff. I don't want to glorify them. I want to bring memory back to the victims, just like showing what we have done in our careers to help individuals and that it's really about them and they're what drives us.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly, and that's one thing where you know I've had some younger guys like, if you know, if we run a code and we don't save them and everything, and you know I will, I'll spend a few minutes with the family, if they're there, before we leave, because you know this is, you know the compassion is necessary. Um, you know when you can, and that's one thing where my 17 years with the honor guard and everything too, and it's one thing when I was, you know, was teaching, you know the clinic that I used to teach with. You know our our thing was, you know, family, honor, respect and compassion. And we've actually had some guys tell us that all you know, when you're doing that firefighter or that, that officer's funeral, this is all about that. You know that that fallen person no, it's not, no, that person's gone, it's it, part of it is, and I'm not trying to.
Speaker 3:So, if anybody is listening, don't think that. You know, I'm saying that they don't, they don't fucking matter because they do. The family matters more. Yes, because the families are the one that are sitting there, that are watching you take care of their loved one, that are watching you do all this that you are interacting with, showing the compassion to. They're the ones that are going to remember all this, and it's that translates over to doing our job too. Because if you're going in and you know say, you know, grandpa just died and they just watched you, you know, for 25 minutes trying to save him and you couldn't, then you turn around and you're, you know they want to. You know, a lot of times they will say thank you for trying, but if you just blow them off or you act like a dick, they're going to remember that.
Speaker 3:And that just made the situation even worse.
Speaker 2:And I think to to bring up the great and national treasure of Nicholas cage, like in the movie um, bring out the dead, like, unfortunately, especially EMS and all you know, law enforcement not as much, but to a point, with EMS and fire, like you're going to have cycles where you just lose people, it's going to happen. Like you, you're, you're going to have cycles where you just lose people, it's going to happen. Like you, you're, you're having a battle with death every day. Sometimes they win, sometimes you win. It's a chess game that's just goes on for until you retire and then they finally come for you.
Speaker 3:But it's the it's always trying to focus on the wins, like when you do save somebody, when you do bring somebody, when you do save somebody, when you do bring somebody, when you bring somebody to safety, or for me, when I brought somebody to justice, like you, can't focus always on the negative. No, and that's exactly right. I mean it's unfortunately in this line. You know, when it comes to stuff like that, I mean the negative outcomes do, when it comes to human life, still, you know, outweigh the positive outcomes. Um, you know, it's things have gotten better. We can still, you know, save more. You know we save more people now than we were 10, 20 years ago, just because of different techniques and stuff now than we were 10, 20 years ago, just because of different techniques and stuff. But you know, it is like you said a little bit ago and everything you know people forget that we're human and there's only so much we can do.
Speaker 2:Technology is getting better, but I mean in the end you know two pickup trucks slamming to each other going 80 miles an hour. The opposite way, if they collide into each other at 160 miles an hour, not a lot you can really do about that yeah, no, yeah, no, not not at all.
Speaker 3:I mean it's. You know, yeah, there's only so much that can be done. I mean how we had a fire. Well, the county had a fire and they needed our, our help and we got there. We pulled five people out of the basement. You know the dad didn't survive, um, and stuff, and you know we have to look at the fact that, yeah, that sucked, but you know, the older woman and the three kids did so. I mean it's.
Speaker 2:You're four on the good there, you know, and it's all about the work and this got like really down really fast, I mean. I guess I mean kind of point when you do stuff like this, like it's kind of cathartic in a way, but it's also good for you know. Again, like going back to what we are like. This podcast itself is really kind of a true crime criminal justice but I think rarely do people get to hear this side of it and kind of this more detailed about the people that are responding to those. You don't really hear about that part and a lot of the podcasts that do this stuff. So I think it was really interesting and I've had a blast doing this so far to be able to, with my brother, like have make this episode that is like going to end up being about an hour and 20 minutes, um, but I think it's good information.
Speaker 2:Some people will be like this was fucking lame and I'm not listening the whole thing, and other people are like this is fucking amazing. You never know where you're gonna get out of it. But to me it's my podcast, I'm gonna do what I want and I wanted to do this episode. So, um, before we kind of like wrap it up. First I want to say that when this comes out will be nancy's 19th birthday, so she doesn't know, I'm putting that in here. But happy birthday to Nancy, Nice. But I want to and I think maybe later down the road we should do this again a little bit more scripted instead of like this flow of consciousness, just kind of getting some of the stuff out we'd never talked about. But I do want to thank you so much, man, for taking the time to like talk to me and kind of be a little bit more vulnerable and open about this. I think it means a lot to myself and hopefully, people to get a chance to listen to it.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely, and I'm I'm actually I'm glad and honored that you, you'll want to do this and include me in everything. And I'm, you know, for my very first podcast and stuff and everything. Um, podcast, I said podcast, um, yeah, I I'd definitely be willing to do it again, and so, and and everything. So, yeah, I I appreciate it. And yes, right, nancy is getting ready to turn 19.
Speaker 2:So, getting ready to turn 19, so she gets to edit this. So I'm I'm very proud of that and I'm proud of what she's done to help, uh, help this little podcast uh, become a little less little. That was a lot of little, but so, um, again, mike, thanks a lot. Um, thank everybody that listened. If anybody wants to give any feedback or try to figure out how we were actually related, I am the handsome one and this has been Deviant Criminology. Yeah, and I'm the one with the hair Touche.
Speaker 2:I want to thank you all so much for listening to our little podcast. This is created with love and passion for criminal justice and true crime. So if you're enjoying the podcast, please follow us, like or rate us on whatever system you're listening to us on, subscribe to our podcast and download episodes. Downloads are important for our growth, as is growing our listeners. So if you wouldn't mind, take the time to ask your friends, family, co-workers, tell them about us through word of mouth, social media. I don't care if you even scream at strangers on the streets, to help us kind of get out there who we are.
Speaker 2:If you're interested in learning more, you could visit our website at wwwdeviantcriminologycom. There you'll find some stuff about our backgrounds, references, show notes for each episode. You can also follow us on our Facebook page at Deviant Criminology. We also have an Instagram page, which is Deviant underscore Criminology. Or find me at Dr Richard Weaver on Instagram. And as we grow, we hope to develop a community that will grow with us. So again, thank you for taking the time to listen and have a good week.
