Deviant Criminology
Dr. Richard Weaver Jr., Heather Kenney, and Rachel Czar take listeners on a journey through the world of true crime. With their unique careers in the criminal justice and academic world; they work to provide an entertaining and educational experience for listeners. This podcast examines many areas of true crime including; the formation of laws, cases that defined caselaw, and crimes that impacted the world. Please join us on this journey as we transition from professionals in criminal justice and academia to budding podcasters.
Deviant Criminology
Mad Dog: The Violent Rise and Fall of Vincent Coll
The notorious life of Vincent "Mad Dog" Coll unfolds as a tragic tale of an Irish immigrant who became one of New York's most feared gangsters during Prohibition, meeting his violent end at just 23 years old.
• Born in Ireland in 1908, Coll immigrated to the Bronx where he lost five siblings and both parents by age eight
• Sent to reform schools by age 12, where child labor and abuse replaced education and nurturing
• Caught the eye of Dutch Schultz and became his enforcer during Prohibition
• Earned his "Mad Dog" nickname after killing a 5-year-old boy during a street shooting in 1931
• Despite numerous criminal charges, Coll was acquitted when his defense attorney exposed the prosecution's witness as a paid informer
• Falling out with Schultz led to a bloody gang war with casualties on both sides
• Met his end in a hail of gunfire in a phone booth after accepting a contract to kill Lucky Luciano
• His short, violent career illustrates how trauma, poverty and discrimination drove some immigrants toward organized crime
Join us next week for another deep dive into true crime and criminal justice issues that continue to shape our understanding of crime and justice in society.
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So this is the St Patrick's Day episode of Deviant Criminology. I'm Richard, I'm Heather and, to start off, I would like to dedicate this episode to my amazing bunny, who is my wife, and this is her birthday. So this week we wanted to kind of do a little dedication to somebody that had Irish history. Unfortunately, we are a true crime podcast. It also means this guy is kind of an asshole. So, to start off, we're talking about Vincent Mad Dog Cole, who I'm going to let Heather pronounce this name.
Speaker 3:Thank you, I appreciate that we think it's Unseen Okola. It's U-I-N-S-E-A-N-N-O-C-O-L-L-A.
Speaker 2:Who was born on July 20th 1908 in Gweedore County, dongle in Ireland. He was destined for a life of infamy from the earliest days, so born this Irish name that I cannot pronounce. We've looked it up. Unfortunately I don't have call an Irish friend on my phone, but at some point when he gets to the US which we'll talk about here in a second he changes his name to Vincent Cole and then earns the nickname Mad Dog. So he was born into poverty in an Irish-speaking district, which is kind of an important thing, as we're talking about on St Patrick's Day, because even right now in Ireland there's kind of this big push to force the in Northern Ireland, the government to recognize the traditional Irish language. So the fact that he came from an Irish speaking district even back in the 1900s would have been something that was seen as more of a detriment because of the Irish control, the English control of Ireland at this time, because this is before the revolution in 1916. So in 1909, paul's family emigrates to the United States and they settle in Bronx, new York City.
Speaker 3:The young Vincent faced immense hardships early on, with five of his siblings dying before he reached the age of 12. Tragedy struck again when his father abandoned the family and his mother succumbed to tuberculosis in 1916. So since he was born in 1908, he's like eight years old and he's already lost both parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do think it's interesting and again, like a lot of his history focuses on his crime, not this, like eight years old and he's already lost both parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I do think it's interesting and I again like a lot of his history focuses on his crime, not this. But 1916 is kind of when the revolution um in ireland started. So I don't know if maybe his father tried to escape ireland because of the troubles that were going on, because obviously the late 1800s into the early 1900s a lot of irish were fleeing um ireland, ireland, because of the English control that was going on. So just having some Irish history which of course around St Patrick's Day everybody has some Irish history it's really interesting to look at kind of those connections in the history of Ireland and seeing that this was a family that was trying to come over here for a better life and lo and behold, who knows if they really did, when you're having five siblings die the poverty that they would have been exposed to coming here as a group of people that were very demonized and villainized at the time as immigrants coming to this country from Ireland.
Speaker 3:And not speaking English, which is just another obstacle. Not speaking English, which is just another obstacle.
Speaker 2:So, left in the care of his elderly sister, Cole's troubled youth began to take shape. So by the age of 12, he was sent to his first reform school, marking the beginning of a tumultuous relationship with authority. And that's kind of something that we saw a lot in some of the classes I've taught and some of the things I've done research on with reform schools, Because we kind of think of those now as like oh, that's where we'd send like truant kids and stuff. But back in the 1920s these were more of a very strict military style institution that was ran by the states and sometimes by non-profits or religious organizations. But they were used. There were sensitive facilities like this. They had to live at the facility.
Speaker 2:It was a boarding school there was a lot of problems with. They were used as manual labor. So some of the things that they were required to do was building and maintaining school facilities. They would do farming and agricultural work. They were used to do the cleaning and cooking, laundry services, and then part of what was considered their vocational training was also doing industrial training and workshops and providing services, so kind of like we've talked about in prior, in prisons in 1930s and even going back into the 1800s. These were some of this stuff that they were doing, the products they were producing with the farming and agriculture or the industrial training were being used to income for the facilities to continually thrive and there were a lot of controversies with these type of schools, including abuse and maltreatment, exploitation, again, of child labor.
Speaker 2:There was no real emphasis on education, so there was a lot of inadequate education because they were focusing more on manual labor and punishment. You had racial segregation in some of these sorry facilities and also you obviously would have had a separation of maybe the Irish, the Italians and different people that were considered lesser on the scale at the time, and then again, forced assimilation Like this was forced and utilized to make kids have to live together, even groups that didn't get together, that may have had different rivalries and things, maybe because of cultures they came from, the areas they came from, but this was not an environment that you wanted to be sent to, let alone would be used for a 12-year-old kid that's getting in trouble to start having any faith in the system or trust of the government or other institutional organizations.
Speaker 3:Or any type of familiar support. I mean he's, he's lost everybody at this point and I mean 12 is not that old, and especially when you've lost your parents when you were seven or eight years old, that this is one of the ones that kind of gets me where I have a little bit more sympathy for him, cause I just can't imagine being in that position at that age and anything good coming out of it.
Speaker 2:And you you don't have. You know, and this is something that you and I have talked about and like comes up in different episodes, and I know it'll come up for a long time, because one of the things that go on to any youth development is attachment and having like a caring figure that you can attach to. He doesn't have that and the only authoritative figure in his life is the state. It's basically using him for child labor and abusing him in these reform schools. So of course he's going to have a misdeveloped and almost stunted social aspects.
Speaker 3:And, of course, since he has all those issues, he ends up running to a life of crime and ends up on the streets joining up with the notorious Gopher Street Gang, and that association sets him on his path of escalating criminal activity, with Vincent quickly developing a reputation as a wild and unpredictable force in the streets of New York.
Speaker 2:Prohibition took hold of America, cole's criminal career flourished and this is something that we've done episodes on and there's a lot of really great documentaries and films out there about this and stuff. But Prohibition really did kind of bring in this new era of organized crime in the United States. You already had some that was here. I mean, organized crime has been around for probably since basically humans walked. But with prohibition you really started to see the development of the Italians and the Irish. The Irish especially because they had a lot of knowledge of distilling and things from coming from Ireland over here and then just the Italians had already a lot of control and relationships with law enforcement, the government and things. So it's no surprise that he ends up turning this life a crime, especially when prohibition comes in. So by 23, he had already amassed dozens of arrests. At 16, he was arrested for carrying a gun.
Speaker 2:So it was during this time that Cole caught the eye of Dutch Schultz, who was a prominent Jewish gangster who recognized the young Irishman's potential for violence. Schultz hired Cole as an enforcer, trusting him to protect their illegal alcohol distribution delivery chucks that they utilized. And this partnership would provide a launching pad for Kohl's notoriety in the underworld and this is kind of something we talk about organized crime in this time period. So many people immediately think like to the Italian mobs and the Costa Nostra and things like that. But really the Irish and the Jewish community were just as powerful, and one of an organization that would develop later. It's not we're not talking about it here, this is much later. But murder Inc was primarily Jewish and Irish hitmen that would take contracts for the Italian mob, which of course they never called themselves the mafia, they were the Costa Nostra. But so here I Cole is an Irishman, is kind of developing his trade and his place inside of this criminal underworld.
Speaker 3:So Cole's criminal activity escalates rapidly. Under Schultz's employment, when he's 19 years old, he's charged with the murder of Anthony Borrello, a speakeasy owner, and Mary Smith, who was a dance hall hostess. The charges were eventually dropped, likely due to Schultz's influence with the New York Police Department. This brush with the law, however, did little to deter Cole's violent tendencies. Cole was found not guilty and acquitted, which was no surprise, as Schultz uses influence to tamper with the jury, and it was one of those matters of find Cole innocent or else.
Speaker 2:So Vincent walked free and the jury got to continue to live a life without the or else part yeah, I mean, that's uh, that's kind of something that if you've studied, studying the mob and I know you you know obviously going through um, becoming a lawyer, like you've heard a lot about this, about.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of corruption at this time, but a lot of it had to do with just the violent nature of these organized crime people. They had no harms of killing cops, of killing jurors, of killing. There really was no limitations except, most of the time, women and children and of course, at this time women weren't really serving on juries yet, like the, you know, you weren't really considered as equal to the men. So when we and we've and you've talked about this before but that, like you're a jury of your peers, if it's white men, then yes, it's a jury of your peers, but if it's you're anything but a white man, then it's not. And it was very easy to threaten and pay off people or judges at this time and there's a lot of history of that.
Speaker 3:So around January of 1931, vincent and Schultz have had a falling out and at that point Vincent got arrested. Vincent and Schultz have had a falling out and at that point Vincent got arrested and Schultz being the intelligent man that he was, put up the bail money to get Vincent out, even though they had had this falling out. And he did that because he didn't want Vincent to be telling the authorities what he knew. And he decided he'd rather pay the money to get him out of jail on bail bond than to have Vincent telling the police the information that he had, vincent being the pal, that he was decided to skip out on the trial, which meant that that bail bond was forfeited. So then Schultz was out the money he had put up to bail Vincent out. Schultz of course told Vincent hey, you need to pay me back. And Vincent said, nope, I'm not paying you back. And that was the final breakdown of their relationship. And after that those two factions started what was basically a war between the two men.
Speaker 2:It's so sad to see murderers fall out of love with each other. It always ends badly. Murderers fall out of love with each other. It always ends badly.
Speaker 3:It really does. I mean it's it. It turns into well a lot more drama, to be honest, and people flip flopping sides and stabbing each other in the back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's the, the godfather of one, two and three, even though we really only talked about two.
Speaker 3:um which of course then, like after this cause, they've had their falling out. Then Vincent ratchets up the violence and starts killing people in Schultz's close circle of people and then, in retribution, May 1931, Schultz kills Vincent's brother, Peter, who was becoming a gangster in his own right but was Vincent's right-hand man. And things at that point are escalating and it gets so bad that Schultz offers a large sum of money to several policemen to murder Cole, and Vincent is known as such a badass that they say nope, no, thank you, Don't want any part of that.
Speaker 2:So the event that would forever cement Cole's reputation as Mad Dog occurred on July 28th 1931. During an attempted kidnapping of Joseph Rowell, one of Schultz's associates, cole and his gang opened fire on a crowded street. In the chaos, five-year-old Michael Vengali was caught in the crossfire and killed. This tragic incident drew national attention to New York's gang problem and earned Cole his infamous moniker for Mayor Jimmy Walker. And this is a time that you're starting to see we're about two years before the development of the FBI, as we kind of see, as more of a law enforcement agency. So it was events like this and the Kansas City shootout that really kind of brought national attention and the crackdown that would almost kind of inspire more of what we see as the deep police involvement across the country in crime like this. So following the Bengali killing, cole went into hiding, alternating his appearance by dyeing his blonde hair black, growing a mustache and wearing sunglasses. But despite his efforts he was apprehended after just three months on the run. The subsequent trial in December 1931 became a spectacle.
Speaker 3:So more about that wonderful trial. So Mayor Walker, who you mentioned, wanted of course to have a quick trial done, get him out of here, hang him high. Be done Because of course, politically this was horrible for New York and there was a lot of pressure that something needed to be done about this, especially when kids are getting gunned down in the street. So they're trying to get this quick guilty verdict and execution done. But in the meantime Cole has a defense attorney, samuel Leibowitz, and Leibowitz was one of the extremely successful criminal lawyers at that point in time. I read somewhere that he had been an actor at one point in time, or maybe a failed actor, but because of that background he was able to take that into the courtroom where he could make a lot of dramatic flair and presentation and basically get the attention he needed to and the charisma probably to get the juries to acquit.
Speaker 2:But the really part, the biggest part of the courtroom, is the jury how the jury's to acquit, but the really part, the biggest part of the courtroom, is the jury. How the jury views witnesses, the prosecutor and defense, and how it does kind of become a popularity contest.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. To some extent it does, because they have to be able to feel like they can trust the people who are giving them information right, because credibility that's a huge thing. So if the defense attorney is telling them a story about you know it didn't happen, because that's what it basically is, is a story right? The prosecution says this is what happened. A, b, c, d. Defense says no, that's not how it happened. It happened this other way, just like you know kids in first grade. And then the jury has to decide well, which version of events is accurate. Is it you know the prosecutions is accurate? Is it you know, the prosecutions, the defense, or somewhere in the middle?
Speaker 2:so if you have a defense attorney who can't sell a good story and is not believable, then the defense, the jury's going to say the defense is not believable and go back to what the prosecution's telling them and I also wonder and again I will lean on you and your knowledge of kind of the courts and stuff but I also wonder at this time, like we've seen with almost a glorification and the hero worship of criminals at this time, and the anti-establishment kind of anti-government because this is prohibition, this is after the well during the Great Depression, if people were more apt to like, if you were like oh, the government's corrupt and they're just trying to frame this innocent irish immigrant who's just trying to come here and make a difference in his life and look what the government's doing to him.
Speaker 2:And the jury was like you're right, the government's horrible and corrupt. So maybe they would lie to just try and pawn this guy. So I, obviously I don't have that. I'd love to be able to go back and read transcripts and stuff like this, but I'm sure they don't really exist anymore it'd be very difficult to find them, at the very least um.
Speaker 3:But of course you also have to remember the difference in ethnic groups at that time. It could have also been you'd get a jury who would say this is an irishman. Obviously he did it. You know he's done without even looking at any of the evidence absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think we talk about now like we see how juries are, but back then, you're right, like especially New York and stuff, they, the boroughs and stuff, were very divided at this time. So yeah, I understand that that could have been a like really big issue with finding people guilty just because racial bias, ethnic bias, cultural bias, religious bias, if you had Protestants who were from England or had English background and there's a Catholic Irishman on the thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, and with this defense attorney he was really good at picking jurors who would be sympathetic to his clients because he represented multiple people in this underworld at the time and the main witness for the prosecution for this case was George Brecht. And the defense really did their homework on this and they researched it and they were prepared in a way that the prosecution obviously was not, because when he testified, the defense was able to impeach him and show that he had a criminal history and that he had offered similar testimony in another trial in another state and they basically were able to show that he was a paid underworld informer who was guilty of perjury at that point in time because he lied on the stand.
Speaker 2:So he's kind of like the go-to guy for law enforcement, like, hey, we need an eyewitness or somebody that's part of the criminal underworld to come and just say what we tell you to say, and here's the money we'll pay you.
Speaker 3:At least that's how it would appear on some you know like to some extent he definitely perjured himself about his criminal record. So, right off the bat, how can you believe him when he lied about that? And then they had this other testimony that was so similar in a different trial against a different person. So as soon as that came out, there was a directed verdict of not guilty from the bench, which is extraordinarily rare. Basically, what that means is the judge looks at the information on the case and says there's no way a reasonable juror could find this person guilty. So basically he found and credibility is something that almost always goes to the jury Like.
Speaker 3:I can't think of another example off the top of my head where it did not go to the jury, because that's one of the things that the jury has to decide. And there's been times when somebody's on the stand and everybody's like, oh my God, that person is such a liar and it still goes to the jury. It's up to the jury to decide what weight to give any evidence, and included in that is credibility of witnesses. So the fact that the judge took that decision away from the jury and came back with a directed verdict is crazy, but that's what happened in this case.
Speaker 2:Now would that be like a prosecutor done fucked up or like is that kind of why you would get that is you've just done such a bad job at presenting the evidence that they're just like no, you screwed up that's, yeah, that's usually what a directed verdict is.
Speaker 3:so it would be something like you miss a key element of the crime, um, or like you have a witness who you thought was coming that day and then all of a sudden the witness isn't there and the judge is like, well, you have to go forward and you say I can't, all right. Well then that's it, your case is over. If you don't have another witness to call, you're done. And then at that point you don't have your case proven, then the judge would enter a directed verdict because you haven't met the key elements of the offense, whether it be the location of the offense, the identification of the defendant which that would be a big one is, you know, identification of the defendant. If you can't identify the person who did it, that's a problem. But there's a in venue. You have to prove that you have the venue for that case to be heard in front of that court. There's like a list of things, and every, every individual crime has its own list of components that you have to prove.
Speaker 2:Like I just feel, like I just just hope and I know this isn't what happened, but that there was a statement in there from the judges like every prosecutor in this building is now less important because of the embarrassment you just gave to this entire criminal justice system, I revoke your license and make god have mercy on you, like, and then on the same george bresh way, to come up with a scam to make some money during the depression era. Man, like right, I'm not saying it's good, like how many innocent people went to prison, but like he thought about it. Like you know what, I'm not making money here, but I can make money as a fake witness for the cops and then, at the same time, you have to scratch your head as far as, like who knew about this?
Speaker 3:like did the police know about it? Did the prosecutor know about it? You know at at what point. For instance, like me personally, if he was my witness on the stand, I like every time and I've had this before where I have a witness on the stand who has a criminal history, I always ask them about it right off the bat, put it on the record. It's out there. I don't try to hide it, or when I was in practice, I didn't try to hide those things. It was something I'd bring up right away and put out there, because I think it's one of those things that's important. And you'd also give the witness a chance to explain, like the circumstances that led them up to that point or how that had come to pass. But in George's case, when he lied about his criminal record, if I as a prosecutor knew he had a criminal record and I knew he was lying, it would be my duty to inform the court. That's not accurate. So at that point you're basically impeaching your own witness.
Speaker 2:And the question here would be and I didn't see it, and again we're talking 100 years ago but was he an informant that the police brought forward or one that the prosecution brought forward? Informants and stuff, because they do have. Especially if you're offering them time off of their sentence or plea deals or things, there is an incentive to lie and it's really important, I would believe, for the prosecutor to try and make them look as good as possible, but there's still that blemish of they have a reason to be lying. You know, if that informant comes forward and says you know what? I'm getting nothing for this, there's no time off, there's no promise of time off, I'm doing this out of the goodness of my heart, that probably holds more weight than like, oh yeah, I'm getting 10 years off, if I say this story right now.
Speaker 3:Like no, Exactly which we talked about in one of the previous cases. And the other thing too with George being part of this underworld, you also don't know what kind of money was going back and forth under the table. As far as did Schultz have some influence? Was he, you know, putting his finger on it, especially after Vincent ditched him and he got stuck with the bail bond bill? I could see, you know, if I was Schultz, I might be like, hey, george, that guy skipped out on that trial and I got stuck with that bill here. I'm going to pay you this much. You go tell him, screw him over, because he screwed me over.
Speaker 2:Or at the same time, daddy Schultz goes to the judge and says you know, I've got all these connections to the speakeasies and all these underworld. You make sure he gets out of that courthouse so I can get a shot at him. You've got it made for life here. I'll get you in the doors. You want to get into in the parties because that's one of the things that the criminal underground, especially New York, dc, la, new Orleans, some of these big cities was there was the connections of the social world. Actresses, actors, the rich all had connections with these speakeasies. So you had a bargaining chip, even just in access.
Speaker 3:That's true too. So Cole's luck in the courtroom did not translate to success in the underworld. His relationship with Schultz deteriorated rapidly, which led to that violent falling out, and Cole had demanded to be Schultz's partner, but Schultz was like nope, no way. And then, of course, that rift set that stage for the bloody gang war that we were talking about. That completely consumed New York City.
Speaker 2:So in a bid for independence, cole began targeting other gangs, like we talked about, for kidnapping and ransom. But the audacious strategy kind of made him a pariah in the criminal underworld. So not just was or him and Schultz having problems, but the Irish gangs, the Jewish gangs and the other criminal elements, just they didn't want anything to do with him, which once you're kind of on the outs of all the families and all the organizations, you really kind of become a target for all of them, even though it's sometimes and this is the case with him it also makes you a really good person to go to to target other people and other gangs. Because if everybody's like that's a pariah, nobody will have a relationship with him. Then that's the guy I'm going to go to to hit because nobody's going to think I would have hired that guy. Then that's the guy I'm going to go to to hit because nobody's going to think I would have hired that guy.
Speaker 2:So again, cole finally makes another fatal mistake and it came when he accepted a contract from Salvatore Maranzano. I'm going to say that again Salvatore Maranzano, to assassinate Charles Lucky Luciano for $50,000. Swear to God, I just have this fear that the ghost of Lucky Luciano is going to come back. Like you called me Chucky, you son of a bitch, but unbeknownst to Cole. Luciano had learned of the plot and struck first, having Marizano killed before Cole could carry out the hit, which, if you know anything about the mafia ties at this time. Lucky Luciano was a heavily connected mobster, so the fact that he found out from a much lesser mobster had taken a hit out on him is not a surprise and probably wasn't a safe bet to take that hit. Anyway, that would have been like going to Chicago and being like, yeah, I'll take a hit on Al Capone, nobody's going to find that out. So going to Chicago and being like, yeah, I'll take a hit on Al Capone, nobody's going to find that out.
Speaker 3:So this turn of events sealed Cole's fate, because Luciano turned around and placed a $50,000 bounty on Cole's head, right Because he was showing up to kill him as their assassins were leaving. So very unlucky, if he'd just been there a little bit later, or a little bit earlier, he would have missed them and might not have ended up with the bounty on his head. But on February, the 8th 1932, vincent Mad Dog Cole met his end in a hail of gunfire. He had been lured to a drugstore on West 23rd Street under the pretense of a truce meeting with Owen, madden. Cole entered his phone booth. A truce meeting with Owen. Madden Cole entered his phone booth to make a phone call to Madden and as he spoke, a hitman named Leonard Sarianci Scaranucci.
Speaker 3:Scaranucci Thank you, see, I'm not good at pronouncing names at all Entered the store with a submachine gun hidden under his coat and in a brutal and efficient attack, he unleashed a barrage of bullets which killed cole instantly.
Speaker 2:The coroner's report would later reveal that there were at least 15 bullets that had struck cole, but they thought many more had passed through his body and we kind of talked about this in the rise of gangsters in the first place was that tommy gun is what kind of was known as the weapon of choice, and these were brutal weapons firing like the. Tommy gun is what kind of was known as the weapon of choice, and these were brutal weapons firing like the. The tommy gun had 30 to 50 round drum mags and it was easy to unload so many rounds in somebody that basically lack of a good definition. I apologize for the graphicness of it but I mean it just turned people into swiss cheese. It was really hard when you're putting that many automatic rounds into a human being, to be like they definitely only got hit 15 times, like it probably was a lot more. And this hit kind of becomes seen, is and played out in multiple films and stuff like this was one of the graphic hits that was just so publicized because of how public it was, so thus ending the violent, notorious life of Vincent Mad Dog Cole at the age of just 23 years old.
Speaker 2:We talked about all this stuff and like his rise to success, all these court trials and everything, but he died at 23. And we see that with other people that we talked about 20s and 30s, like that was the height, like Babyface, nelson and all those other guys like they died at such a young age. But to them in the world that was going on at that time, with prohibition, with the great depression, it was more of a chance to have a good life choosing this path than it was to try and have a nickel and dime life, maybe selling papers, working in a factory, dying at that same age anyway because of factory mishaps and everything else. So his brief but brutal career left an inevitable, indelible mark on the history of New York's underworld, serving as a cautionary tale of the dangers and ultimate futility of a life dedicated to crime and violence, which I think that that may be overstating some facts, because there are a lot of people even today in New York and other cities that see organized crime and crime as lucrative.
Speaker 2:And at this time there was that folk hero-ness, there was that connectedness and also that alienation of the Irish that kind of pushed them into organized crime and lives of crime because it was so hard to find any other work, because we saw signs around the country, like you know, irish and dogs keep out and the Irish were very targeted.
Speaker 2:And it's very sad and to think this was an Irish family that immigrated here. I think, minus the fact that this guy was a horrible murderer, I think that two things again can be the same that it was somebody that was driven to this through so many unfortunate events that led to him being put in these institutions, but a so many hundreds of thousands of other Irish people came here and lived very successful, happy, non-criminal lives, and the false stereotype to Irish are a bunch of drunks. But I think this really shows that so many people have come here. Italian, irish people from South America, africa, all around the world have come to the United States for a better life, and sometimes that's not how it works out, but they can be used as an example of how we could do better as well.
Speaker 3:I completely agree with that, because who knows what could have happened with his life had somebody intervened when he was seven or eight years old.
Speaker 2:I mean all the way back to you know, if the English hadn't been shitbags and you know just like massacred the Irish in their own home country. But we'll get off that high horse because that will send me down a road that I don't want to get canceled. So I think that covers enough for Lucky. So happy St Patrick's Day and happy birthday to my wife. I want to thank you all so much for listening to our little podcast.
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